null Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Looks like Australia might be the first in the world to ban the use of engineered stone within the next few years. From the article ... Burke said he had “a good degree of confidence” that the states and territories would agree on Tuesday to task Safe Work Australia with “scoping the options for a ban”. https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/feb/28/australia-moves-to-ban-silica-engineered-stone-benchtops-silicosis-fatal-lung-disease I have noticed there have also been ads on mainstream tv encouraging people to not use engineered stone. I am guilty of having engineered stone in our kitchen. I thought there were ways to cut it safely but it appears that regulation hadn't been working. I didn't realise it was such a big problem. 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mishu Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 I was speaking to DH about a ban on engineered stone and his view is that it won’t solve the problem, it will just move it. If we can’t manufacture engineered stone in Australia, he thinks it will be imported instead. So there will be increased demand for this product from o/s countries and their workers will be exposed instead. He believes we need to focus on improved safety measures and enforcing these, instead of a ban. I haven’t looked into this much myself, but I thought his point made sense. 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Hills Mum Bec Posted February 28, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted February 28, 2023 1 minute ago, Mishu said: I was speaking to DH about a ban on engineered stone and his view is that it won’t solve the problem, it will just move it. If we can’t manufacture engineered stone in Australia, he thinks it will be imported instead. So there will be increased demand for this product from o/s countries and their workers will be exposed instead. He believes we need to focus on improved safety measures and enforcing these, instead of a ban. I haven’t looked into this much myself, but I thought his point made sense. The ban also includes a ban on importation of engineered stone. 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fruitmincepies Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Good. The industry has failed to clean itself up, so a complete ban is the only way. I was aware of the issue, so spent time researching alternatives before speaking to our designer. She was so excited that I want porcelain, she says she’s been trying to get clients to use it for years, but everyone wants engineered stone (or marble). So forcing people to make a different choice is a good thing too (although it may push up the price - or maybe encourage porcelain manufacturers to increase production and the ranges they produce). 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooguru Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Good. A family member is renovating including redoing their kitchen and I've been incredibly disappointed in the building companies responses ranging from completely disinterested and confusion about what silicosis even is through to incredibly condescending as they pat us little ladies on the head and assure us that all their products are safe but unable/unwilling to answer questions about the stone counter tops they are selling. 6 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dianalynch Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 About time, it’s the asbestos of our era. I live in a house that has engineered stone benches, purchased the house that way. No way I’d replace benches with engineered stone knowing what I do now. It’s a case of when we know better, we do better. 8 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crombek Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 If they are going to ban engineered stone then they need to ban sandstone, concrete and mortar too. Sandstone especially has similar levels of crystalline silica. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemonMyrtle Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 10 minutes ago, Fruitmincepies said: Good. The industry has failed to clean itself up, so a complete ban is the only way. I was aware of the issue, so spent time researching alternatives before speaking to our designer. She was so excited that I want porcelain, she says she’s been trying to get clients to use it for years, but everyone wants engineered stone (or marble). So forcing people to make a different choice is a good thing too (although it may push up the price - or maybe encourage porcelain manufacturers to increase production and the ranges they produce). is it also a failure of enforcement though? No industry changes unless its forced to. So many times we enact laws but the actual enforcers are under-funded and gutless to actually do anything about it. Fines can be laughable. So what do governments do? They just ban things, cause its easier. Businesses get away with what they can get away with to make more money, and no one polices anything any more. Where are the spot checks? and inspections? and checking of records? Silicosis in particular was known about years ago, and yet here we are, banning engineered stone, because nothing has changed. why has nothing changed? Its because they asked people to change, and didnt follow up. Im a bit jaded, i suppose. But i see in the news, rubbish/recycling stockpiles, toxic waste dumped and stockpiled, people injured in easily preventable workplace practices. All found out when its wayyyy too late. Then they just ban things, cause its easier. Then there is the more benign things Ive noticed, like vic roads dropping speed limits to 40km an hour on major roads, instead of actually fixing dangerous roads or policing speeding. Bans and tight restrictions are answers, i suppose, but they are lazy answers and dont address root causes. 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemonMyrtle Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Also, there are human-free stone cuting machines. Humans dont even need to cut stone bench tops (unless theyre doing a repair or something, in which case proper PPE neeeds to be used, and wet cutting) So the industry could be easily cleaned up, with the right motivation. https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Heavy-Duty-Fully-Enclosed-Marble-Granite_1600069225280.html 5 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moomintroll Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 I'm curious what the main current alternatives are? Nearly every kitchen seems to have engineered stone benches. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinsel Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 3 minutes ago, Moomintroll said: I'm curious what the main current alternatives are? Nearly every kitchen seems to have engineered stone benches. Don't know for sure, but I would guess Laminex, timber, marble, concrete, stainless steel. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemonMyrtle Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Just now, Moomintroll said: I'm curious what the main current alternatives are? Nearly every kitchen seems to have engineered stone benches. Well there is laminate (which can be pretty nice these days, and lasts a long time) And they arent talking about banning natural stone (which seems to be what they use on all the american renovation shows) I have no idea how much a granite bench top costs in australia, do we have granite mines? OR you could have wood, or some sort of plastic i suppose. Our current kitchen bench seems to be some sort of thick, moulded plastic over a wood frame, not quite laminate, but not solid either. No idea what it is. I do love cesarstone though. Its just so durable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fruitmincepies Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 3 minutes ago, Moomintroll said: I'm curious what the main current alternatives are? Nearly every kitchen seems to have engineered stone benches. Porcelain, natural stone (granite, marble etc), wood, stainless steel, laminate, polished concrete. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfie34 Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 1 minute ago, Tinsel said: Don't know for sure, but I would guess Laminex, timber, marble, concrete, stainless steel. plus granite. we got caeser stone when we renovated, and I hate it. it stains so easily with turmeric and coffee so i am always wiping compulsively. we have a few chips. i only got it because i was worried about resale - every house seems to require it. i think timber looks lovely and a proper sealed hardwood can be used for years and also resanded and finished if required. my caeserstone is 3 years old and already chipped. We used laminex in our last reno/ house and it lasts so well. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bornagirl Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 I'm lowering the standard of my suburb by having chosen laminate. I hate hard, cold surfaces, and prefer not to have timber. 7 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifesGood Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Granite used to be very popular. It is incredibly tough. We have it on our outdoor kitchen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifesGood Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 33 minutes ago, Crombek said: If they are going to ban engineered stone then they need to ban sandstone, concrete and mortar too. Sandstone especially has similar levels of crystalline silica. My brother said this as well. However, I've never heard of silicosis being a problem with these products. It may have something to do with the method of cutting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooguru Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 11 minutes ago, Moomintroll said: I'm curious what the main current alternatives are? Nearly every kitchen seems to have engineered stone benches. On the radio the head of the union (I think) was saying depending on the silica content stone can be ok to use, he said some have as much as 90% which is a definite No. But others have around 30% which they are okay to use (I think- it's a week or so since I heard it and I'm going off scribbled notes I made on the back of a receipt). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crombek Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 (edited) 18 minutes ago, LifesGood said: My brother said this as well. However, I've never heard of silicosis being a problem with these products. It may have something to do with the method of cutting. Silicosis is a type of miners lung. Its been a problem in the mining, rock drilling and tunneling industries forever. Like LemonMyrtle says, its been known about for a long time and some industries have been more proactive than others in tackling it. DH has to undertake huge amounts of induction around safety when he works in mines or on projects like underground power stations, part of it is around breathing precautions. ETA I believe concrete can be a very high risk, and it is only because its not generally cut that it hasn't caused more problems. It will be interesting to see what happens with those who work on refinishing concrete floors or work with the new trend in concrete sinks/bathtubs etc Edited February 28, 2023 by Crombek 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunaFreya Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 52 minutes ago, dianalynch said: About time, it’s the asbestos of our era. I live in a house that has engineered stone benches, purchased the house that way. No way I’d replace benches with engineered stone knowing what I do now. It’s a case of when we know better, we do better. It’s worse. Asbestos related illnesses can take years or decades to develop. This is much quicker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gumbette Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 1 hour ago, Moomintroll said: I'm curious what the main current alternatives are? Nearly every kitchen seems to have engineered stone benches. I think they'll come up with a low silica alternative if they have too. Also we have engineered stone in our new kitchen - chosen after speaking to our kitchen manufacturer. He uses machines for everything including cutting the actual cupboards. MDF is also banned overseas for health issues but perfectly legal here. I'm sure plenty of tradies don't think of that either as they start cutting and breathing in formaldehyde. The machine cost him $500K, but he said it's quicker, more precise, and best of all he can sleep at night. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
null Posted February 28, 2023 Author Share Posted February 28, 2023 56 minutes ago, LunaFreya said: It’s worse. Asbestos related illnesses can take years or decades to develop. This is much quicker From https://theconversation.com/renovating-your-kitchen-help-australias-tradies-avoid-silicosis-by-not-choosing-artificial-stone-156208 They found the average age of diagnosis in Victoria was 41 years of age and almost one in five workers have silicosis. 6 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BECZ Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 2 hours ago, Crombek said: If they are going to ban engineered stone then they need to ban sandstone, concrete and mortar too. Sandstone especially has similar levels of crystalline silica. Yes, with the underground drilling through sandstone etc, I can’t believe that we haven’t heard about this many years ago. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Bicycle Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 1 hour ago, LifesGood said: My brother said this as well. However, I've never heard of silicosis being a problem with these products. It may have something to do with the method of cutting. It's stupid cowboys cutting dry casearstone, wearing little PPE onsite that are the issue. Cutting any stone ( granite, marble etc is going to do the same. As @LemonMyrtlesays there's safe ways to do it. They can remove asbestos safely, they can cut casearstone properly. I actually think Qld's ban on cutting it dry is a better first step along with enforcement. Why ban a totally fabulous product because people cannot take proper precautions? Cut it offsite using wet robotics in a sealed room! Make no cuts onsite. 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Gumbette Posted February 28, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted February 28, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, Kiwi Bicycle said: It's stupid cowboys cutting dry casearstone, wearing little PPE onsite that are the issue. Cutting any stone ( granite, marble etc is going to do the same. As @LemonMyrtlesays there's safe ways to do it. They can remove asbestos safely, they can cut casearstone properly. I actually think Qld's ban on cutting it dry is a better first step along with enforcement. Why ban a totally fabulous product because people cannot take proper precautions? Cut it offsite using wet robotics in a sealed room! Make no cuts onsite. I don't think it's the cowboys doing it, rather the cowboy business owners giving employees no option. If that's the only job you can find and you need to feed your family, well some men will take that chance, especially many migrant workers or those who aren't highly skilled. I agree it should be wet cut, it looks like sludge and can't be inhaled, but 100% machine cut would be even better. Edited February 28, 2023 by Gumbette 10 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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