"Feminist thought does not insist that women should behave like men or the weak should become the powerful, feminism asks that the weak be treated with dignity as they are"

[LunaFreya]

I might need to find an English translation of this lady's book as Chizuko Ueno has just completely nailed everything I feel about feminism. What we want is dignity, what we want is respect for our bodies, our choices, our abilities and our failings. Most men get all of these as a default for simple existence and women have had to fight to basically have recognition despite the fact we make up half of all humans  and humans would not survive as a species without us.

Would like your thoughts on the above statement.

Edited August 28 by LunaFreya

[Mason98]

I really like this statement, it perfectly encapsulates what I think feminism should be.

[Bjh]

I agree absolutely that feminism is not about women acting like men. And I agree that the weak should be treated with dignity. But I pause on the question about the weak becoming powerful, because I want to know the source of the power/weakness. If the power comes from privilege, or the so-called weakness arises from structural disadvantage, then I think that I am insisting on a rebalancing, and that I am doing so through the lens of feminism.

[Kallie]

My only qualm with it is the implication that women are weak. Which they are not - imo - in any way. Other than that, absolutely yes, everyone should be treated with dignity and respect that's what equality between the sexes means to me

[LunaFreya]

8 minutes ago, Kallie said:

My only qualm with it is the implication that women are weak. Which they are not - imo - in any way. Other than that, absolutely yes, everyone should be treated with dignity and respect that's what equality between the sexes means to me

Remember she is coming from an East Asian culture which has clearly defined gender roles for men and women. Think how Australia was before second wave feminism

[Kadoodle]

Nobody should have to prove that they can be physically strong as a man in order to be considered as human as a man.

[Kiwi Bicycle]

I think the word " weak" should be changed out.

To either " different" or " everyone".

[IamtheMumma]

I'm with the others that the word weak, while unintentional, is not the correct word. 

My turn of phrase would be something like...all members of society are accepted by default as valuable members with all the rights and respect attributed equally. One members voice, by default, holds the same weight as anothers. 

But...then we have equity. Not everyone has the same equity and that is harder to fix across gender and disability. Privileged people have voices. 

[LunaFreya]

There are people (men and women) who assume that feminism means denying men rights. I think this is one interpretation of “weak”

[dianalynch]

Feminism has always been about liberation for me…liberation for women to be as we are, in all our differences from each other and from men, and to have the same instant respect as a man gets for just existing.

I’ve never wanted equality in the sense that we have to be the same as men, even though I know that’s not what equality is, I think many people believe that equality means being the same as men, the default gender. 

[Ernegirl]

Interesting topic LF.

 I wondered if she was suggesting that women, as the dominated half of the population in the patriarchy, should be afforded respect regardless and in spite of their position. But I don’t think I have quite grasped it.

I had to google for some broader context for the quote. It was a speech addressed to incoming University of Tokyo students, acknowledging the reality of gender inequality in Japan’s higher education and its broader society, even for successful women.

“What awaits you in the future is a society that does not necessarily reward someone who works hard. Feminist thought does not insist that women should behave like men or the weak should become the powerful; rather, feminism asks that the weak be treated with dignity as they are.”

Very interesting thinker. The message seems to be about becoming cognisant of the words and arguments that feminist thought offers to counter these unacknowledged obstacles in reality?

She speaks about the experience of Japanese women but her books sell well in China apparently because women can recognise the same cultural gender norms underpinning their existence, even though such discourse is largely censored there.

 I also liked this quote of hers:

“There is no feminist who has not come from misogyny. To be a feminist means to engage with and struggle against misogyny. Women free from misogyny (if they really exist) have no reason or necessity to become feminists. Sometimes I hear women claim, ‘I have never been constrained by the fact that I am a woman,’ which actually can be translated into ‘I have been avoiding combating misogyny face to face.’”

[LunaFreya]

5 minutes ago, Ernegirl said:

Sometimes I hear women claim, ‘I have never been constrained by the fact that I am a woman,’ which actually can be translated into ‘I have been avoiding combating misogyny face to face.’”

This is interesting, particularly when it’s a lot of women of privilege (wealthy, white etc) who claim to not need feminism 

[Prancer]

I see myself as a feminist.  I have never thought women should behave like men.  I am not even sure I want all to be treated with dignity.  Respect is earnt, not something blindly given.  Treating people nicely and without discrimination i can get behind.

I just want sex not to be a barrier, the assumption than woman are not as good or only have certain roles.  Gender stereotypes are entrenched in society.  I do want equality, but probably equity more.  A woman from a non speaking background who is queer and with a disability is going to be at a lot more of a disadvantage than an educated white woman.  

Edited August 28 by Prancer

[Ernegirl]

54 minutes ago, LunaFreya said:

This is interesting, particularly when it’s a lot of women of privilege (wealthy, white etc) who claim to not need feminism 

It is definitely enlightening to discover how unnoticeable some of the strictures of misogyny are. It’s not always the obvious embroidery but the tiny hidden stitches underneath in everyday life.

[Crombek]

So the word 'weak' may just be a less than ideal translation? Other than that I agree. Feminism isn't about becoming shorter men. 

I still rant about how enraged Sheryl Sandbergs book Lean In made me. That's not feminism! Feminism means that men start leaning out. Embracing the soft. Feeling their feels. All that 'weak' stuff.

[dianalynch]

I hated Lean In too..it was so privileged 

[LunaFreya]

I don't think privileged women should try to lecture about feminism unless they have a good deal of self-awareness. I tried to address it in the thread I made about tradwives as there is such lack of self-awareness among them as well as a denial that they'd even lose that privilege.

[Crombek]

2 hours ago, dianalynch said:

I hated Lean In too..it was so privileged 

And also solely centred around full participation in capitalism, which is inherently anti-feminist. 

[Kadoodle]

1 hour ago, Crombek said:

And also solely centred around full participation in capitalism, which is inherently anti-feminist. 

Second wave feminism is solidly rooted in capitalism.

[Crombek]

2 minutes ago, Kadoodle said:

Second wave feminism is solidly rooted in capitalism.

Yup, which is why third wave should be more about wrecking the joint, and less 'I choose my choice!' 

[Kadoodle]

1 minute ago, Crombek said:

Yup, which is why third wave should be more about wrecking the joint, and less 'I choose my choice!' 

Is it really a choice if material reality dictates what choices are available? Childcare costs play a huge part in keeping women out of the workforce for chunks of time, and is playing an increasingly important role in women not having children.

[Crombek]

11 minutes ago, Kadoodle said:

Is it really a choice if material reality dictates what choices are available? Childcare costs play a huge part in keeping women out of the workforce for chunks of time, and is playing an increasingly important role in women not having children.

Ah but then we circle back to the quote and if we valued these softer things like caring roles more than profit we could increase men's ability to participate (noting that barriers to this are often structural) and women could increase their participation. 

I see the root of all our current problems as being our current version of capitalism. I'm not sure how we fix it, I'm not sure if there is a fix, but I don't think equality *can* be achieved under it. 

[Kadoodle]

59 minutes ago, Crombek said:

Ah but then we circle back to the quote and if we valued these softer things like caring roles more than profit we could increase men's ability to participate (noting that barriers to this are often structural) and women could increase their participation. 

I see the root of all our current problems as being our current version of capitalism. I'm not sure how we fix it, I'm not sure if there is a fix, but I don't think equality *can* be achieved under it. 

Agreed. As a society, we need to stop deriving a person’s value solely from how much value their labour is to their corporate overlords.

[purplekitty]

Ah,the evil, second wave feminists.

All we had was shitty capitalism and the grinding down of the absolutely dominant patriarchy supported by a vast majority of women against striving for equality.

If you'd lived in a working class, innercity neighbourhood you'd know why visibility was dependent on women with some affluence and education.

Hey EB is basically those women, capitalism is going nowhere.

And I'm grateful, we were able to be educated (thanks Gough) ,and ,more we were able to see ourselves becoming a genuine part of society with opinions and worth beyond our uteri and kitchen duties.

I never saw a woman modelled as a doctor, pilot,scientist and very, very few with a university education growing up in my suburb.

 

 

Times change and yet they don't.

What is so inherent in men that they always regress to the default position of oppressing women. 

 

Disclaimer: #notallmen

 

[Crombek]

16 minutes ago, purplekitty said:

Ah,the evil, second wave feminists.

 

Wait, what? Who thinks that? Second wave feminist were vitally important for getting us onto the chess board in the first place. And I don't think it's anti-feminist to acknowledge that we're still playing a rigged game and that maybe the way forward isn't to keep slogging out for check, counter move, check, but to chuck the board off the table and start playing draughts instead.

Without second wave feminism there wouldn't be a hope in hell of even contemplating a different future. 

Eta: I don't know how to play chess. Bet you could never tell. 

Edited August 29 by Crombek