Victorian government proposes minimum standards for rental properties

[Mooguru]

1 hour ago, LemonMyrtle said:

The hot water system thing is odd, heat pumps are noisy and I’ve read mixed reviews, and solar hot water combined with water saving shower heads can be problematic, to say the least, because gas boosters need a certain water pressure to switch on. And in winter you don’t get enough sun for them to heat the water all day. We had it at our old house and I hated it, it never worked well. 

(but I always ditch water saving shower heads in rentals anyway, it’s the first thing I swap over when we move in!)

overall it seems like a good move though.

we once lived in a rental without air conditioning. And you could see daylight through the floorboards. So on those hot Melbourne days, when you have 40 degree northerly wind blowing, there was no escape from the heat because it just blew up through the floor. And in winter it had ducted heating, I think, but that was not efficient when the floors were to draughty. God that rental was awful. 

I've heard from a few people they wont consider heat pump because of the noise.

We've had electric, gas and heat pump water heaters. The gas was definitely the loudest. Heat pump is louder than electric was but a lot quieter than the gas we had (which was checked and deemed to be in excellent condition).

[LemonMyrtle]

Just now, Mooguru said:

I've heard from a few people they wont consider heat pump because of the noise.

We've had electric, gas and heat pump water heaters. The gas was definitely the loudest. Heat pump is louder than electric was but a lot quieter than the gas we had (which was checked and deemed to be in excellent condition).

Yeah, I think a lot of the noise complaints depends what you’re comparing it to. And where it’s located. (And noise is so subjective)

Like, if your bedroom is currently on a fence line, next door to an old, almost silent, gas or electric storage system, and all of a sudden the owners next door replaced it with a heat pump, you might not be happy. Our gas storage system is almost silent. There is a quiet tick and a whoomph when it lights, but then you can barely hear it as it heats the water. And it only comes on a few times a day because it’s a big storage system. If we had a heat pump there, it would annoy me, because it’s right next to our living area and I’d hear it through the (thin) walls.

and in Victoria, a lot of old homes have gas storage hot water systems, and thin walls. 

[Kiwi Bicycle]

There's also rules about how close to the fence line something can be installed. For example, when we got our aircon unit installed in February, one area we wanted to locate it was too close to the fence and the neighbour's house, so the company wouldn't install it there. Lucky we ended up putting it on the roof. If all the plumbing for the hot water is in one place but now is considered too close to the boundary and neighbours, would you still be allowed to install it there?

[Over and out]

33 minutes ago, dianalynch said:

Although in thinking about it…perhaps It’s Australians who are kinda a bit odd about home comfort…culturally we’ve been all tough it out with heating and cooling…like a point of pride…when Europeans visit they’ll say they’ve never been so cold or hot in their lives. Our housing standards have been way underdone for such a long time. Some experts compare them to tents. So many excess deaths from the heat or cold here. 

So true on our standards.  And that is why the build standards have changed, thank god.  I can remember some colleagues moving from Canada, they froze here in Melbourne.

[LemonMyrtle]

1 hour ago, dianalynch said:

Although in thinking about it…perhaps It’s Australians who are kinda a bit odd about home comfort…culturally we’ve been all tough it out with heating and cooling…like a point of pride…when Europeans visit they’ll say they’ve never been so cold or hot in their lives. Our housing standards have been way underdone for such a long time. Some experts compare them to tents. So many excess deaths from the heat or cold here. 

Yup, now that I have lived in Korea, a land of extreme heat and extreme cold (compared to Australia) I literally wonder why we always put up with such a hot and cold house at home, when here, we are comfortable no matter what time of year.

and it’s because our houses are so crap, that they cost a fortune to heat and cool. But also, Australians are nuts, and seem to refuse to heat or cool their homes properly. Especially heat them, especially in Melbourne. We just suffer through, when many others would not put up with it. 

[Kiwi Bicycle]

11 minutes ago, LemonMyrtle said:

and it’s because our houses are so crap, that they cost a fortune to heat and cool. But also, Australians are nuts, and seem to refuse to heat or cool their homes properly. Especially heat them, especially in Melbourne. We just suffer through, when many others would not put up with it. 

So my parents built a new 2 storey 4 bedroom house. At the start of the build, they were just going to put a heat pump in the living room downstairs,  nothing else.

So DH and I told them, install a whole house reverse cycle aircon with ducting NOW.

I visited them at Xmas. Yeah, they put a split system in the living room and one in a rumpus room at the top of the stairs ( just 2 head units) and they expect it to do the entire house! We were roasting in the bedrooms at night upstairs ( and trying to get the cooling from tge aircon into 2 rooms) but my parents were downstairs in the master, all ok. They just don't understand. Mum tells me she puts an oil heater in in their bedroom at night. Why?

Brand new build with full insulation and double glazing and they still cannot get the cooling and heating right. 

[Crombek]

1 hour ago, LemonMyrtle said:

Yup, now that I have lived in Korea, a land of extreme heat and extreme cold (compared to Australia) I literally wonder why we always put up with such a hot and cold house at home, when here, we are comfortable no matter what time of year.

and it’s because our houses are so crap, that they cost a fortune to heat and cool. But also, Australians are nuts, and seem to refuse to heat or cool their homes properly. Especially heat them, especially in Melbourne. We just suffer through, when many others would not put up with it. 

It's still almost impossible to get the building materials over here to do it. Our windows are imported from the UK because at the time the house was designed, no one was stocking double glazed, thermally broken UPVC tilt windows. It's still really hard to get the wrapping & mechanical ventilation equipment here too for a real passive house, it all has to come from the EU & good luck finding someone who knows how to install it properly. 

[Meepy]

Good policy.   Heating and cooling should be provided as a minimum.  Any landlord that doesn’t want to do that is a slum lord who doesn’t care about the tenants, just about profit.

[Moomintroll]

43 minutes ago, Meepy said:

Good policy.   Heating and cooling should be provided as a minimum.  Any landlord that doesn’t want to do that is a slum lord who doesn’t care about the tenants, just about profit.

My understanding is the WA government doesn't provide cooling as standard in public housing,  even though all parts of WA are hot.

By contrast hardly anyone in Tasmania has cooling, and it's generally not needed. The place I used to live, people complained about the dreadful heat when it got to 25 degrees. 

There are many home owners who don't have cooling. 

I don't think it's as simple as "slum.landlord"

[nom_de_plume]

6 hours ago, UnknownUser said:

I don’t anyone in Victoria who doesn’t have a form of cooling in their owner occupied home. 
Summer gets hot in Victoria. It should be up to the individual tenant to decide if they want cooling on, but the option needs to be there. Whilst perhaps some houses wouldn’t need, I don’t think it’s the majority. My perspective is that it’s better to inconvenience a few (landlords who own property that truly don’t need cooling) to benefit the many (tenants who have no access to cooling).

We didn't have cooling until we had a reverse cycle installed in our lounge room 12 months ago. The rest of our 4 bedroom, double storey house does not have any cooling. 

[Immismum]

I’ve spent a fair bit of time looking at these.

things like having a heat pump hot water system, are an end of life replacement.  So when the gas hot water dies, you replace it with a heat pump one.  There are also exemption for strata situations where it isn’t possible. 
 

Same with heating.  If the gas heater dies, you replace it with a split system RCAC.

There are not many of the requirements that are immediate.

 

The problem with the heat pump hot water systems is that there are a lot of crap ones out there basically because of the rebate available.  Once there is a rebate, the cheapest crappiest ones will come onto the market to make the smallest out of pocket possible so that people will take it up.

We have one we installed over 15 years ago to replace a bottled gas hot water service.  Still going strong and paid for itself many times over despite the initial cost

[onetrick]

I know a fair few people without cooling in their home in Melbourne and it is ok.

Mum has a broken air con that she hasn't bothered replacing for 5 years, as she hardly ever used it. Her house really only heats up when we have multiple 35+ degree days in a row (maybe once aor twice a season?). We have 2 split systems, installed after we had kids. Before then we had evap and it was old and awful.

I remember renting an old weatherboard house while I was at uni. We could see the grass growing under the floorboards, so you can imagine what it was like in winter! Well, the heater broke and the landlord supplied us with 2 of those little heaters that sit under a desk, with the orange bars that get stupidly hot. So expensive to run and they did not heat the house. We had one in each of the bedrooms (and they didn't really help with the temp in there anyway) and only left to get food or use the bathroom. It was awful.

So, I'm all for needing to have a livable house, and agree that we need some parameters, but I haven't looked at the details in this.

[Sugarplum Poobah]

11 hours ago, Moomintroll said:

I just had a quick read. they are going to still allow gas, wood and ducted heating. they are going to insist that all properties have some form of cooling. And they are going to insist that everyone has a heat pump or solar hot water system.

i am not sure about the third one, because heat pump hot water systems are not yet established enough (imo) and quite a lot of people are reporting poor performance if they don't buy the really expensive brands. They are still quite a minority option. 

This comes only a very short time after the Victorian government was insiting that all new builds have agas hot water service. So a little confusing, a quick about face. 

The hot water is only when the current system reaches the end of its life. The date is when that condition is applicable from.

I'm very torn on the cooling. Absolutely there are dwellings that need it, but there are many well-designed buildings (particularity newer ones that are very highly rated for energy efficiency) that don't. If we're really serious about reducing carbon emissions and putting the brakes on global warming then we don't need to encourage people to run cooling systems all summer.

[BornToLove]

When we first moved to Melbourne we rented a house with no air conditioning. The house got hot easily (high 20s) and stayed hot well past the cool change coming through. It was just a little oven. The the house we rented after it, the lower level stayed cool, but the bedrooms roasted during heat waves (more than 2-3 days of over 30). We usually spent a few nights each summer camped out in living room because upstairs was just too hot. 

We've since bought a house and installed split systems in the bedrooms after the gas furnace died and we chose not the replace it. The house does a good job of staying cool in the summer, but the handful of times we need it during those heatwaves, the air conditioning comes in handy. 

[Julie3Girls]

Won’t this just push the rents up ?

I agree on things like insulation, hot water etc.

But heating and cooling … yes it’s nice but it’s not a necessity like hot water. There are a lot of houses without a/c.  Use of stand alone heaters, or fans.  A fan might not be enough for a real heatwave, but you do what all the homeowners do who don’t have aircon - you manage. Hang out somewhere that has airconditioning, lay under a fan, have a cold shower etc etc. 

There will be some houses that don’t need aircon, due to location, or just straight out house design. 

I would have assumed that aircon vs no aircon would be a factor in rent, will just make it harder for someone to be able to rent? I know people would prefer to be able to deal with heat, as long as they actually have a place to live. Particularly people who won’t run the air conditioning anyway, because they need to keep their electricity down,

[Meepy]

It may push the rent up slightly but if a landlord cannot afford to put a split system in- $799 plus install, roughly $500.  They should not be a landlord as they need to have a maintenance/upgrading budget.

Tenants need to be able to live in a home that is not freezing or boiling.  It is not unrealistic to expect a basic standard, regardless of what landlords have in their own homes.  That is their choice.  
 

https://www.thegoodguys.com.au/heating-and-cooling/air-conditioners/split-system-air-conditioners