Discipline issues

[STBG 2]

I don't know but I feel that some opinions here would be different if it was their child who was at the losing end of these frivolities.

 

[Moomintroll]

1 minute ago, STBG 2 said:

I don't know but I feel that some opinions here would be different if it was their child who was at the losing end of these frivolities.

 

I guess the point in this case is there was no child on the losing end. The punishment is not because anyone was hurt, but because small rules were broken and the school feels need to be kept in order to prevent escalation.

And no we can't punish someone every time a few drops of water end up on the ground because someone might have slipped. Most instances of water on the ground are accidental or nature. We have to maintain some kind of balance because punishment of every instance of less than perfect is counter productive. 

 

[Jolly_F]

30 minutes ago, Yogaalaates said:

Maybe you should make an appointment with the school to discuss it rather than arguing with people here who are trying to help you see it from a different perspective, many of whom are teachers who deal with this everyday.

Exactly. Stop talking to other parents about it. Go to the source and go with an open mind and be willing to deal with any issues the school raises. Your kid is the only one you can influence to do different when faced with these situations.  

It reads as though you try to take a hands off approach to your kids schooling and don’t want to push him on any possible crappy behaviour as you want him to see you support him. Sometimes our kids need us to push them. You can push and be supportive. It’s not either or. 

[STBG 2]

Just now, Moomintroll said:

I guess the point in this case is there was no child on the losing end. The punishment is not because anyone was hurt, but because small rules were broken and the school feels need to be kept in order to prevent escalation.

And no we can't punish someone every time a few drops of water end up on the ground because someone might have slipped. Most instances of water on the ground are accidental or nature. We have to maintain some kind of balance because punishment of every instance of less than perfect is counter productive. 

 

Because we don't know it's a few drops and there are so many scenarios where even a little bit of water will have a negative effect on some kids. I think it comes down to trusting the school that the punishment will fit the crime and that whilst not expecting our kids to be perfect they do understand there will be consequences whether they think they are fair or not. 

Not everything has to be a 'gotcha moment' for the school and how they respond to bad behaviour. As I said in a PP, kids who have some previous history will garner more attention and a bigger punishment, again it may not be fair but they need to learn this too.

 

[dianalynch]

DS has some difficulty sometimes keeping still and not acting on impulse…he’s quick to apologise though and is genuinely sorry when it’s disruptive. So he doesn’t really get kept in but I think it’s because he’s honest about his behaviour and does say sorry. 
 

And he does understand that teachers are people and get tired too, so the punishment they hand out at the end of a long day might well be different to a punishment at the start of the day…we talk about not worrying too much about minor injustices, and to save up any complaints for the major ones. The boy who cried wolf and all that. 

[Tess32]

1 hour ago, Kiwi Bicycle said:

We used to do rubbish collection at lunch time. A slightly gross, boring but worthwhile activity. You had to show the bag to the supervisor of your collected rubbish at the end.

This is what they just did for the lunchtime detention, rubbish pickup.   I think previously they had to write a paragraph on what they did wrong, so they must alternate what they do in detention.  

[Tess32]

1 hour ago, STBG 2 said:

I don't know but I feel that some opinions here would be different if it was their child who was at the losing end of these frivolities.

 

What losing end?  In the first instance they both got detention, and in the second, the first kid wasn't seen and now feels bad.   

JUst because there have been DIFFERENT instances at another school in another time and place in the country doesn't mean that's what happened.    Why is it so hard for people to believe that MAYBE teachers also get in bad moods and sometimes overreact?    The teachers on here all seem to just assume the parents are biased, have no idea what's going on and are always justified.  I'm glad they don't teach at this school or are anywhere near my kid.

 

[Tess32]

1 hour ago, Jolly_F said:

Exactly. Stop talking to other parents about it. Go to the source and go with an open mind and be willing to deal with any issues the school raises. Your kid is the only one you can influence to do different when faced with these situations.  

It reads as though you try to take a hands off approach to your kids schooling and don’t want to push him on any possible crappy behaviour as you want him to see you support him. Sometimes our kids need us to push them. You can push and be supportive. It’s not either or. 

I mean, I just expect them to be punished appropriately and not over dumb stuff.    Like most people who aren't on EB, heh.  This is the only place I knew would be like THE WATER COULD TURN INTO A FLOOD AND SOMEONE WILL DIE.

 

[DaLittleEd]

@Tess32 is it a private school?

You mention it was a day at the senior campus. They were probably repeatedly told they would be expected to be on best behaviour, and adhere to the standards expected at the senior campus which are likely different to those expected in lower school.

[Crombek]

6 hours ago, Tess32 said:

What losing end?  In the first instance they both got detention, and in the second, the first kid wasn't seen and now feels bad.   

JUst because there have been DIFFERENT instances at another school in another time and place in the country doesn't mean that's what happened.    Why is it so hard for people to believe that MAYBE teachers also get in bad moods and sometimes overreact?    The teachers on here all seem to just assume the parents are biased, have no idea what's going on and are always justified.  I'm glad they don't teach at this school or are anywhere near my kid.

 

The teacher overreacted in a bad mood on 3 separate occasions? Or 3 separate teachers happened to coincidentally have bad moods and your son was just coincidentally there each time?

ETA: not all of us are teachers. I'm not. Some of us know how much of a PIA our own kids are though lol

Edited June 20 by Crombek

[Aust-27]

5 hours ago, Tess32 said:

Yeah as someone else said,  complained about detention not the water.    They were not drenched, the wording was that they washed their hands and flicked each other with the left over water on their hands.  The reason for the detention was misuse of school property, ie, the water.   It's way over the top, it's absolutely fine to just talk to kids, explain the reason and tell them off, they do not need a detention for every single thing.    

What are they going to give them now if they have an actual fight?  Or they do something malicious like bullying?  Another detention?   Three detentions?  Becomes meaningless for actually bad things.



 

"Misuse of school property"? What - the water or the bubbler or both?

That's ridiculous either way.

They were mucking around ffs. 

 

[onetrick]

38 minutes ago, Tess32 said:

The teachers on here all seem to just assume the parents are biased, have no idea what's going on and are always justified.  I'm glad they don't teach at this school or are anywhere near my kid.

 

You're the one generalising here, and attacking us professionally is just not ok. 

I don't think I ever said think that your son deserved both detentions, as I wasn't there. But the point of most of us commenting was that neither were you.

[Jenflea]

But they shouldn't have been mucking around. They were supposed to be using the bubbler. Which I thought was to drink from but maybe it's to wash hands in too, it's been years since I've seen bubblers in use(DD's school turned them off during covid and they never came back on). 

 

[Two-bit]

My Dad was my school principal when I was in year 10, in country WA in an area where it got to 45+ degrees every day. He caught me having a fight at the water fountain and sentenced me and the other children to scab duty (picking up rubbish). I still remember that punishment... Water on concrete is a slipping hazard, an unnecessary one. 

Our primary school sent this out in relation to playground squabbles between boys and why teachers are trying to sit back a bit before intervening.

Teaching is such a fraught profession. I've had dealings with the school just today over DS in grade 7 being bullied by another child, and his other friend's worrying decision to pick up a rock to resolve the situation. I want to keep DS at home in a bubble but that isn't good for him in the long term.

 

[STBG 2]

1 hour ago, Tess32 said:

What losing end?  In the first instance they both got detention, and in the second, the first kid wasn't seen and now feels bad.   

JUst because there have been DIFFERENT instances at another school in another time and place in the country doesn't mean that's what happened.    Why is it so hard for people to believe that MAYBE teachers also get in bad moods and sometimes overreact?    The teachers on here all seem to just assume the parents are biased, have no idea what's going on and are always justified.  I'm glad they don't teach at this school or are anywhere near my kid.

 

There are a lot more 'just parents' here who are commenting who don't see things in the same light as you who actually do understand that teachers can be moody and overreact but do not at each instance assume their child is innocent because they know too well that if they don't always behave at home they probably don't always behave at school and there has to be a consequence. I don't think a detention is the end of the world, particularly if it is not for a first offence.

My beautiful son was sent to the 'hot seat' outside the principal's office on his first day of school. I could have lost the plot but I was told why and I gave them my support.  He also had several detentions in secondary college, of course he told us that it was no big deal and he didn't deserve it but I trusted the teachers despite their mood.

BTW He is a lovely person, father and partner and works in a school and is still a prankster who got a mullet when one of his students dared him to.

[Greenbean]

OP I haven't read everything here but I'd suggest -

1) speak to the school holistically about what you are seeing, in case there's greater context missing 

2) this will do one of two things. Either open your eyes to why the detentions are happening and make you reflect OR clarify to you that this school is not the right place for your kid

3) you can then decide a productive way forward 

 

[Mooguru]

4 hours ago, Tess32 said:

It sounds like biased here because of your own personal experiences.    I'm sorry, but this has absolutely nothing to do with an actual fight that has caused a disability.     I mean earlier in the thread his one flick of water turned into a puddle on the floor which turned into someone's concussion.      Not every behaviour in life escalates to some catastrophic event.  You might as well just make it all home schooling because a student talking to another student might escalate to a yell which might make some other student run away, fall into a ditch and break a leg.

Again, my son playfully putting his hands on his friends IS NOT THE EQUIVALENT of whatever happened to your colleague.  Enough.

I get it, on the surface it seems way over the top (especially the water splashing) but i'd definitely be talking to the school. A one off water flicking I'd probably lean towards over reaction. But if the teacher says the students have received multiple warnings about it and been told it's now an automatic detention, or another child had been told off for doing the same thing immediately beforehand, then I'd say the school was justified in its punishment. But you aren't going to get that kind of context without talking to the school. Not because I'm assuming your son is deliberately lying but because those things might not even have registered with your son if his situational awareness is less developed than expected.

I also think it's important to look at why his friend feels guilty and awful that what he did wasn't seen by the teacher. Because it me makes me question whether he's been made to feel responsible by your son or others for the teachers punishment. Because he's not responsible for your son's behaviour or the teachers response. And it's important he knows that your son doesn't blame him. And if your son does blame him, that's a conversation that needs to be had with your son. 

[Prancer]

I am not a teacher.  I also have 2 kids older than yours so am not commenting as someone that has no idea.  I also have kids that are ND and there are numerous times when I have not been happy with how the school had dealt with things.  But at the core of everything that I might think was unjust, I do try and focus and acknowledge that my child’s behaviour was not appropriate.  
 

In high school, a kid threw a blackboard duster across the room as a bit of harmless fun.  Hit someone in the eye and they had to have numerous eye surgeries.  I am sure this stuff is rare but it does happen and schools have a duty of care.  I would have though hands in a water fountain had a germ element.  And I tell my kids off for purposely splashing water on the floor.  I have almost slipped over, or someone will walk through it and put muddy footprints everywhere.  I would also think that there was a context around what happened and it might not have been about one tiny drop of water.

Edited June 20 by Prancer

[ellie]

I’m not a teacher, but I did a stint as a school psychologist in a Sydney high school. My guess is the school have identified your son as someone who lacks impulse control and behavioural regulation skills, and who takes limited genuine responsibility for trying to improve their behaviour. They most likely assume he lacks appropriate boundaries and guidance at home around this, and their concerns are not taken seriously. Subsequently, they are probably paying more attention to his behaviour AND possibly responding in a more disciplined way. Most likely in an effort to try teach him to act appropriately and develop some behavioural regulation abilities.

It’s not saying he is a bad kid, I’d definitely be wondering about ADHD symptoms though. The frequency with which he is getting caught for ‘silly stuff’ would have me questioning his impulse control, and ability to learn from his mistakes. I’m pretty sure they are trying to communicate this too without coming right out and saying it. Hence the discussion about his disruptive behaviours in class. 
 

My eldest has ADHD and a very strict teacher, and even she has managed to learn to avoid pissing her teacher off. I’ve sometimes thought her teacher is way OTT with some of the things she says to the students, DD included. However, I understand the need for the teacher to maintain behavioural control in the classroom or they would never be able to do any teaching. I just tell DD that if you don’t want your teacher to speak to you like that, behave yourself and don’t piss her off. You can be supportive without undermining the school and that’s the balance you need to find. If it were DD, I’d probably say something like ‘I understand you feel it was unfair and you were joking around when you grabbed your friend, but you know the school is strict on that stuff and they have a strict hands off policy. What could you do next time to avoid the same situation?’ It’s really important to get him reflecting on HIS actions, not how unfair the school is. 

 

 

[Exp]

7 hours ago, Tess32 said:

The primary school did a much better job.  If the kids did something like the push/shove bit, they would have gotten them simply to speak to each other and if it wasn't just play, resolve it.    I'd much prefer they TALK to them, then just hand out detentions without understanding context.  He wasn't even told why they cancelled the after school one. 

What was the school’s response to this feedback?

[Exp]

I have a strict no throwing things rule in my classroom and I will haul any kid over the coals who breaks this rule even if they’ve thrown a soft toy or a piece of paper. 
 

It may seem OTT. 
 

Several years ago now a student threw a piece of paper across the classroom. It flew into a classmate’s eye and the child ended up in hospital to address the laceration on her cornea. 
 

I therefore make no apologies for ‘seeming’ OTT. I know what I’m doing. 
 

Even on a bad day when I’m in a bad mood, I know what I’m doing. 

[123tree]

On 20/6/2024 at 11:27 AM, Tess32 said:

What are they going to give them now if they have an actual fight?  Or they do something malicious like bullying?  Another detention?   Three detentions?  Becomes meaningless for actually bad things.
 

Well I would assume the response to actually fighting or bulling would be suspension.

However sometimes shoving and splashing can be intimidating to other students who may also want to get a drink or whatever. It is also somewhat unruly so I can understand why teachers would prefer if kids just did things calmly and sensibly. 

On 20/6/2024 at 12:36 PM, LemonMyrtle said:

Those detentions do seem over the top to me, unless, it was the last straw after an entire day of the kids being shitty. Then, well, they reap what they sow.

 

If it was my kid I'd probably assume this. Sometimes kids push the envelope over and over.  However my son has gotten detentions for fairly minor things and complained to me and I have been quite shocked and put out on his behalf but then later found out that he had racked up demerit points and then the final thing (which he told me about) pushed the points up into detention time. 

 

@Tess32 I'd make an appointment either with your son or on your own to talk to the school. My son's both have ADHD and my DS2 used to always seem to be getting in trouble. We had a meeting with the coordinator who spelled out the expectations and explained the system and situation to both me and my son. Despite my son having read the document on discipline that the school provides he just didn't get it. The school was able to explain the context of these incidents much clearer than what my son had, who perceived them to be completely random.  Now he gets into trouble a lot less. It also helped that I was able to advocate for him and outline what supports he required for his impulse control.

I think the school appreciated that we were all on the one page and quite frankly I think they were sick of him getting in trouble as much as he was.