Hints for a learner driver and her nervous teacher?

[Mrs Twit]

We did this

juniordriverexperience.com

with both my kids at the same time. I think DD was 16 and DS was 14. It was pricey from memory but such a good confidence booster. DD has anxiety and I worried about teaching her to drive but this helped. 

Basically we did it in the carpark at Sundown race course. 1 car and instructor for 2 kids. The kids take turns driving (20 mins on, 20 mins off etc) and the one not driving is an observer passenger (no phones allowed so they have to pay attention). It goes for about 3 hours and they learn starting the car, driving, braking, cornering, driving through cones etc and the final thing they do is an emergency brake in the wet. So good! The parents all stand round watching, drinking coffee, chatting and having a bit of a laugh spotting whose kid is a lead foot, who ran over a cone etc. 

Other thing we did was start our kids driving in the school holidays and did a lesson every day so they have a good 10 hours under their belt in the first 2 weeks. Otherwise they forget stuff and you spend half of each lesson getting them comfortable and relearning what they learnt last week or last month. DS started in December last year and had over 20 hours by the time he went back to school. 

 

[Bornagirl]

14 hours ago, Ballogo said:

 

  We made it out onto the local roads a lot more quickly, but his confidence is a little higher than his skills and last time he went out too hard and too fast for my liking. 

There are times when just having one is not so bad.  Not sure I could repeat it and retain my sanity.

We mixed in driving lessons with me teaching her.

It was many decades since I'd learnt to drive so I needed to hear how she was being taught. The instructor was a bit wary of me joining until I told him 'I need to copy you!'.   It worked really well, as she's get to a stage where I was unsure of the finer points of what's acceptable.

At one point I politely refused to go out with her because I felt she was too confident, and was driving in a way that I wouldn't, until she had an instructor's feedback.  i.e. driving downhill on the main road, on the tram lines, in the rain, with a pedestrian crossing coming up, and cars coming out from the supermarkets on both sides.  "I'm not over the speed limit" was her response.

So ... next lesson and I told the instructor why we were ready for another lesson.  After a while he showed me his clipboard with comments, and he had 'not driving to the conditions' as the only negative. She finally believed me.

 

[Mrs Twit]

1 hour ago, Bornagirl said:

It was many decades since I'd learnt to drive so I needed to hear how she was being taught. The instructor was a bit wary of me joining until I told him 'I need to copy you!'.   It worked really well, as she's get to a stage where I was unsure of the finer points of what's acceptable.

DD only had a few lessons when she was close to being ready to sit the test and her driving instructor encouraged us to come out with them so we knew what she needed to work on. It has also been useful now we are teaching DS 

[Kiwi Bicycle]

45 minutes ago, Mrs Twit said:

DD only had a few lessons when she was close to being ready to sit the test and her driving instructor encouraged us to come out with them so we knew what she needed to work on. It has also been useful now we are teaching DS 

Plus we are all have bad habits and we don’t know the criteria they exam to. Also some road rules are a bit obscure, so unless you have totally studied the road code and seen lots of examples, we definitely need refreshers on what is current.

[Bornagirl]

55 minutes ago, Mrs Twit said:

DD only had a few lessons when she was close to being ready to sit the test and her driving instructor encouraged us to come out with them so we knew what she needed to work on. It has also been useful now we are teaching DS 

 

8 minutes ago, Kiwi Bicycle said:

Plus we are all have bad habits and we don’t know the criteria they exam to. Also some road rules are a bit obscure, so unless you have totally studied the road code and seen lots of examples, we definitely need refreshers on what is current.

Exactly.  I was a bit surprised when he was hesitant about me coming, but I guess that's maybe based on negative experiences with parents.    I just wanted to listen to know what to teach myself.

There are things like 'how long do you have to stop for at a stop sign?', I thought that if your car came to a complete stop, that was fine, I have zero recollection of anything else.  Apparently it's three seconds from rockback which is a heck of a long time.  He said you might get away with two, but you won't get away with one.   Lots of little bits & pieces like that.

The guide for parents that comes with the Vicroads learner book was fantastic for me.

[Julie3Girls]

5 minutes ago, Bornagirl said:

 

Exactly.  I was a bit surprised when he was hesitant about me coming, but I guess that's maybe based on negative experiences with parents.    I just wanted to listen to know what to teach myself.

There are things like 'how long do you have to stop for at a stop sign?', I thought that if your car came to a complete stop, that was fine, I have zero recollection of anything else.  Apparently it's three seconds from rockback which is a heck of a long time.  He said you might get away with two, but you won't get away with one.   Lots of little bits & pieces like that.

The guide for parents that comes with the Vicroads learner book was fantastic for me.

I’d be guessing that a lot of parents wouldn’t just keep quiet and listen. Last thing the instructor wants is a back seat driver, or even just the parent asking questions or conversation.  Keeping anxious parent out of the car is also one of the big advantages of professional driving lessons

With my older two, the driver instructor was happy to give me feedback after the lesson, about what they should focus on. Or more to the point, they would give feedback to both me and my child. Because they were the one that really needed it. 

Other thing is to actually talk to your child about lessons - lay down the rules “if I say brake, you brake, you do not discuss it”. And work out what teaching works for them.  Dd2 didn’t want a lot of talk, just the basic instructions. Dd3 is the opposite, she likes running instructions and feedback. After a professional driving lesson, I’d ask how it went, is there anything the instructor did that was good from a teaching point of view.

[Julie3Girls]

7 hours ago, onetrick said:

just on the EV thing... it could be handy for your DD to learn both. When I got my licence I got manual so that in an emergency I could drive someone else's car. This happened more than once. Maybe view EV/ ICE as a similar issue? Being able to drive other cars (not necessarily now, but closer to licence time) is a great skill to have.

Totally agree with this.  Although I wasn’t aware there was a difference between driving a EV or ICE? 
We have taught our girls to drive all the cars in our house, from the huge Land Cruiser 4WD, the small Hyundai accent, and the mid sized Camry. We do stick mostly to my car for lessons, but it’s been good for them to get experience in different cars. Gave a bit of perspective, and the confidence in knowing they could drive the other cars.   Once they have their licence, there is always the possibility of them needing to drive an unfamiliar car. Unfortunately, haven’t had access to a manual car, I always meant to make sure they at least knew the basics

[Bornagirl]

23 minutes ago, Julie3Girls said:

I’d be guessing that a lot of parents wouldn’t just keep quiet and listen. Last thing the instructor wants is a back seat driver, or even just the parent asking questions or conversation.  Keeping anxious parent out of the car is also one of the big advantages of professional driving lessons

With my older two, the driver instructor was happy to give me feedback after the lesson, about what they should focus on. Or more to the point, they would give feedback to both me and my child. Because they were the one that really needed it. 

Other thing is to actually talk to your child about lessons - lay down the rules “if I say brake, you brake, you do not discuss it”. And work out what teaching works for them.  Dd2 didn’t want a lot of talk, just the basic instructions. Dd3 is the opposite, she likes running instructions and feedback. After a professional driving lesson, I’d ask how it went, is there anything the instructor did that was good from a teaching point of view.

Very true, as I mentioned, it was probably a result of experiences.

I just wanted to listen though.  There's a lot to take in, during a lesson and given I was doing most of the teaching, I wanted to do it the same way.  I got lots of useful tips from just listening - things she'd never have thought to tell me because it was all new to her. We only had half a dozen lessons over the whole period, and it was good to know I was doing it exactly the same way.

He actually welcomed it after the first time, because he knew I was just there to listen.

[Gumbette]

51 minutes ago, Julie3Girls said:

Totally agree with this.  Although I wasn’t aware there was a difference between driving a EV or ICE? 
We have taught our girls to drive all the cars in our house, from the huge Land Cruiser 4WD, the small Hyundai accent, and the mid sized Camry. We do stick mostly to my car for lessons, but it’s been good for them to get experience in different cars. Gave a bit of perspective, and the confidence in knowing they could drive the other cars.   Once they have their licence, there is always the possibility of them needing to drive an unfamiliar car. Unfortunately, haven’t had access to a manual car, I always meant to make sure they at least knew the basics

A lot of EV's have 1 pedal driving - I rarely use my brake to stop.  For someone who has never driven an ICE, there will be a much slower reaction to hit the brake if you need to stop suddenly.  I also don't need to hold the brake at lights etc., but I found out I can adjust that so the car will roll like an ICE which I now do when she's learning.   The centre of gravity is also very low - it corners beautifully-again without even touching a brake, so the opposite of the Mazda CX9 or Prado that I previously drove. The biggest difference though will be acceleration, they're like rockets, whereas my 4WD's were very slow off the mark. Especially the Mazda with it's stupid iStart. 

[Gumbette]

Someone at work has suggested these guys - they have a track that's marked up like a road.  I've booked in her first lesson.

https://hart.honda.com.au/courses/nsw/car-driver-courses

 

[STBG 2]

Parents were not permitted to go out with kids during driving lessons when ours went. I am sure our kids were glad of that, not that either of us wanted to go.

[STBG 2]

2 hours ago, Bornagirl said:

 

 

There are things like 'how long do you have to stop for at a stop sign?', I thought that if your car came to a complete stop, that was fine, I have zero recollection of anything else.  Apparently it's three seconds from rockback which is a heck of a long time.  He said you might get away with two, but you won't get away with one.   Lots of little bits & pieces like that.

 

There is no 3 second rule for stopping. It is  estimated that it may take about 3 seconds to come to a complete stop then start again but that is it.

[Kiwi Bicycle]

21 minutes ago, STBG 2 said:

There is no 3 second rule for stopping. It is  estimated that it may take about 3 seconds to come to a complete stop then start again but that is it.

There might not be a rule in the road code, but the examiners might have " unofficial" rules they mark to. For example, reversing around a corner. Who cares if you tap the curb in real life, but that's a black mark in a driving test.

[Julie3Girls]

58 minutes ago, Gumbette said:

A lot of EV's have 1 pedal driving - I rarely use my brake to stop.  For someone who has never driven an ICE, there will be a much slower reaction to hit the brake if you need to stop suddenly.  I also don't need to hold the brake at lights etc., but I found out I can adjust that so the car will roll like an ICE which I now do when she's learning.   The centre of gravity is also very low - it corners beautifully-again without even touching a brake, so the opposite of the Mazda CX9 or Prado that I previously drove. The biggest difference though will be acceleration, they're like rockets, whereas my 4WD's were very slow off the mark. Especially the Mazda with it's stupid iStart. 

I did not know that. I wonder if that would potentially be an issue for kids learning to drive, similar to the differences between auto and manual cars?  
The differences in acceleration and braking is one of the reasons we get our girls to drive the different cars while learning, it’s good to have the experience of being able to adjust your driving to whatever car you are in. I know DD has occasionally driven her friends cars, when they have shared the driving, so it was good experience.

[STBG 2]

3 minutes ago, Kiwi Bicycle said:

There might not be a rule in the road code, but the examiners might have " unofficial" rules they mark to. For example, reversing around a corner. Who cares if you tap the curb in real life, but that's a black mark in a driving test.

They can not lose a mark for not waiting 3 seconds, they will only take away a mark if you do not come to a complete stop before checking then moving off however they can take marks for hitting a curb as it could show a lack of ability to reverse safely.

Edited May 7 by STBG 2

[Bornagirl]

7 minutes ago, Kiwi Bicycle said:

There might not be a rule in the road code, but the examiners might have " unofficial" rules they mark to. For example, reversing around a corner. Who cares if you tap the curb in real life, but that's a black mark in a driving test.

Yep, he didn't call it a 'rule' as there IS no such thing.

It's a measure he uses, which has worked with all of the examiners he has worked with.

You need to stop for long enough to work out if you need to give way.  Obviously in his (and the examiner's) book one second from rockback is insufficient. It's behaviours that drivers of decades may have slipped out of due to (possibly justified) confidence.

 

[Chocolate Addict]

I was always taught to stop and count to 3 at stop signs. I don't think I actually do but I found it a good way to check traffic properly. Where i live it would reduce the number of accidents if people started doing that. lol

My child is/was a very anxious driver. I had him go across our very wide drive way (probably 20m) without using the accelerator, just to practice stopping and feel of the car. Then in our court but I would have to turn the car around lol

Also, my car didn't have a hand brake, it had a foot brake so I couldn't stop him if needed.

Once at the local train station on a quiet Sunday but he got so anxious he got the shakes.
He did 2 driving lessons with a qualified teacher then decided it wasn't for him.

I taught a friend in her 40s, she was nervous but didn't listen. We still laugh about it.

Going down a busy shopping strip road with lots of pedestrian crossings, I would say 'stop', stop STOP there is a pedestrian. lol She was focused on watching the road she didn't remember to keep an eye out for pedestrians. I am like when I say stop I don't mean slow down, I mean actually stop.
She got her P's first go so I mustn't be too bad.

[Gumbette]

3 hours ago, STBG 2 said:

There is no 3 second rule for stopping. It is  estimated that it may take about 3 seconds to come to a complete stop then start again but that is it.

I was told the rule was as long as it's hard stop, not a rolling stop you're good to go. 

[STBG 2]

19 hours ago, Gumbette said:

I was told the rule was as long as it's hard stop, not a rolling stop you're good to go. 

I have had the misfortune of having to sit my license twice as RTA cancelled it after not driving for 3 years after my accident and then found myself having to study the very revised road rules that were not necessarily around in 1972 to pass it all again. Gosh it was stressful, it was an hour on the road merging onto the freeways so many times to check I had not lost my nerve as well as the written test.

The stop sign rule and the hook turn ( a Melbourne CBD thing )were 2 that actually hadn't changed but lots of other things had been added due to the type of roads and cars etc that had changed so much in 30 years.

PS...I have not done a hook turn for over a decade because I think I have lost my nerve with them.

 

[LemonMyrtle]

On 6/5/2024 at 11:43 AM, Mooguru said:

According to a family friend who is a now retired driving instructor:

20 years ago Students came for their first lesson having spent their entire lives subconsciously observing traffic and their parents driving. So teaching kids to drive primarily involved the physicality of driving - how much to press the accelerator, how sensitive the brakes are, how far to turn the steering wheel etc. Understanding traffic was definitely part of it but it was secondary because most kids already had a pretty good understanding of the basics.

These days, many of the kids learning to drive have never observed traffic. From babyhood on they've had dvds, ipads, phones or other distractions to look at for the duration of car trips. So they are starting to drive having absolutely zero awareness of anything driving or traffic related. 

So definitely start talking through what you're doing and make sure she's actively involved in the conversation. Don't even attempt to get into a car together with her driving until you're both in tune with each other whilst you're driving.

This is so true. My kids are never watching me drive, they’re on their iPads or whinging that they’re bored. When I was young we went on 7 hour road trips with nothing but a bit of I-spy to keep us occupied. So you paid attention to the road and the driving and it soaked in. And the car was a manual, so every change of speed was accompanied with a gear change, so it was obvious what was happening.

My kids will take forever to learn to drive. Maybe I’ll ban iPads in the car, and tell them they can’t have screens in the car until they can prove to me they know a red light from a green light, which pedal is the brake pedal, where the indicator is, and what makes a good driver. 

[Basil]

We've had two successful P platers.  I was also given the advice from a friend who didn't get in the car with her kids until they had at least 10 professional lessons (and 20 was better).  

I assumed we'd do the same thing but my eldest got his L's during the early covid lockdown so we didn't really want to be exposing ourselves to someone outside our bubble.  So, we did the 100+ hours ourselves and when he felt ready to go for his P's, we swapped to the instructor's car only so there was no confusion with indicator positions, accelerator feel etc.  

The DD got her L's and it was difficult to juggle the timing of professional lessons with school and extra curricular activity commitments.  So, again, we did the bulk of the hours ourselves (she reached 100 hours in about 4 months).  When it came time for her exam, she had 4 lessons in the week prior and got it first go with no errors.

 

I did the online refresher course that our state government put out for people teaching young learner drivers.  It helped with knowing I was up to date with road rules.  The RACQ also had an info thing online with tips about teaching your child to drive.  That was also really useful with tips like having a set checklist that they must tick off before even starting the car (plates, log into the app, put phone away, seat position, steering wheel position, mirrors, seat belts of all passengers etc).

I also had a rule that they had to listen to me the first time I said something.  We had some early arguments and I had DD pull over on more than one occasion where I drove home.  They needed to respect that I was the more experienced driver, I was their supervising instructor and it was my vehicle.  If something went wrong, I would be on the hook.  It's a massive privilege and responsibility to drive and they had to show respect to everyone.

My other rule was no arguing while driving.  They accept my instructions without arguing or back chat during the learning period.  We have a dash cam which was useful in the early stages where DD tried to justify and argue her poor decision making.  We agreed that we can note any incidents that we want to talk about later, but while driving on the road as a learner, they had to listen and follow my instructions without fail.  This obviously eased up as they became more competent.

They primarily did their early hours in my massive, late model European SUV.  It has all the whizz bang sensors and aids which were really useful when we were in traffic.  I had many comments about why was I willing for them to learn in my car but I pointed out that it was the safest vehicle for everyone - including the pedestrians on the road.

We started off with quiet car parks and the very first lesson with me, I got them to try and position in a parking bay (just lines on the road, no pillars or bollards).  I then got them to tell me where they think they are positioned and get out to compare.  We didn't have the cameras or satnav screen turned on at all during the early period.  It helped them to get an understanding of where the car is in relation to their driving position and also where they should be adjusting their seat to.  

Once I am comfortable that they know their road position and how much the steering wheel moves the car at low speed, I will go onto quiet streets with them.  It's all about building up skills in layers and not expecting too much all at once.  These skills are new and need to be regularly practiced and reinforced so they become second nature.

We've had a no use phone in the car rule so they did learn to observe roads and driving patterns before they got their L's.  Talking through the driving steps is good.  It can also be useful to get them to talk through what they would do as you drive so they're doing the brainwork part without having to actually drive.

It's painful but so handy to have useful designated drivers in the house that all that pain is worth it

We didn't really touch parking until they'd had over 50hrs of driving.  It's just not that important during the early stages when there's so much to learn and get used to.

Edited May 8 by Basil

[Gumbette]

46 minutes ago, Basil said:

 

It's painful but so handy to have useful designated drivers in the house that all that pain is worth it

 

That's why I'm so keen to have DD gain her P's.  Previous 2 driver 4 person household has gone down to a 1 driver 3 person household, so I really want a backup. 

[Jenflea]

I'm looking forward to Dd (14) getting her license so I can send her out to get dinner lol. 

[Kiwi Bicycle]

@Gumbette have you checked your insurance re an EV and a P plater? I wasn't aware of the issues. ( we are looking at an EV or hybrid in the future, but DS is onky 10 so hopefully insurance issues will be sorted by then).

Re EVs and P-platers, it’s worth mentioning some insurers have age restrictions for EV drivers. Mine won’t insure anyone under 25 on my Tesla Model 3 AWD.

Paul Merhulik, email

That’s a right pain if the family car’s an EV and you want the kids to drive it, but can’t get insurance. I always advise EV shoppers to first get insurance quotes. It’s typically more expensive (by around 20 per cent) than combustion cars, and there may be harsh age restrictions, as you’ve found.

[Gumbette]

@Kiwi Bicycle, thanks, yes. I have a Tesla Y RWD - much slower acceleration of 6 secs. 0-100, the nanna of the Tesla range.  The Tesla M3 AWD is something like 4 secs 0-100 so flaming fast and more powerful (the thing is a rocket).

On the insurance side, TBH, I did a comparison of a $70K ICE vs a $70K EV, and the it was round $200/ yr dearer.  I think insurance in general has gone up, but I may be wrong.  Some insurers are insanely expensive, but others (Allianz), the difference was negligible. 

EV prices have come down a lot so I'd wait too.  

Edited May 23 by Gumbette