HoneyBear Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 18 minutes ago, VictorineTheCatLover said: It wasn't just the UK that "created" Israel after WW2. It was the US and France as well. They just didn't have the foresight to even imagine that it wasn't the right thing to do. Yeah or more realistically they were just imperialistic, white men bullies used to enforcing their own way as rule. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Cat Posted October 9, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted October 9, 2023 Obviously it is such a complicated situation. Surely most can see that there is no black and white here. We can feel awful for the situation of the Palestinian people, while saying there is absolutely nothing which justifies the barbarity of this recent attack. Sadly the reactions in this thread alone - from people on the other side of the world with no real investment (apologies in advance if anyone is Jewish, Palestinian, or in any way personally connected) shows just how messy the situation on that region is. I don’t see peace any time soon, and this recent attack has surely set back any progress by decades. 13 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bornagirl Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 People are probably not aware of this sort of thing happening. I'm not sure I would even have registered the article given I was travelling, if I was not in the country at the time: Quote https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/5/papua-new-guinea-opens-israel-embassy-in-west-jerusalem 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplekitty Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 1 hour ago, Romeo Void said: I also am puzzled by the amount of funding the US sends to Israel with little objection, yet there is huge objections to funding going to Ukraine. The Jewish influence in the US is high. It has the largest population after Israel IIRC. Not all those of the Jewish faith support Israel and its policies. Many progressive,liberal Jews are critical of it. When I was living in NYC it was very obvious. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iamferalz Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 12 minutes ago, Jolly_F said: This thread and some of the posts are an interesting read considering what most of us (assuming some here cannot participate for a variety of reasons) are being asked to do this coming weekend. Good point. If the country votes “no”, are we that much better than the Israelis?. Look at the history of the treatment of people of First Nations heritage past and present. We imprison them at shocking rates today. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictorineTheCatLover Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 9 hours ago, Hermione said: Just saw a headline saying Iran helped plan and back the attack. That really escalates things even more, and probably means more widespread conflict in that region. Considering there are eyes on Iran et al how was there no chatter picked up? How did Hamas fighters get past Israeli security so easily? How did the IDF not pick up ANY Intel that this was even being planned? From everything I've seen this was a total surprise to everyone. Another theory I've seen floated was that this was planned by the IDF as well.... Who knows? The horse has well and truly bolted now. No one will be clear headed enough to look any deeper tbh 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunaFreya Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 What has one got to do with the other? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernegirl Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 1 hour ago, Hermione said: Is it also that Israel is aligned with the western world, and hence the western world more naturally allies with Israel? Not sure - I am asking for my own future knowledge. Well at the risk of crowbarring Ireland into the conversation as usual (sorry) the political conflict at home has identified with the Israel/Palestine conflict for years. Because, territorial dispute. The Unionists align with Israel and the the Republicans identify with Palestinians, due to similarities in their historical background. To the extent that in the 90s, I used to walk to work past “Boycott Israeli Goods!” placards on streetlights. I used to literally wonder what Israeli goods were on sale in Belfast. Of course unionists and republicans are currently squabbling over the current Israeli crisis, because why have one conflict when you can have two? I think despite the complicated origin of the Palestine conflict, most people, everywhere, abhor the targeting of innocent civilians in such barbaric and distressing attacks as have happened this week. Most people abhor terrorism. People on the ground just get bloody sick of living diminished lives in a conflict zone. At home the vast majority of people want to define life via the ballot not the bullet. Of course democracy is pretty imperilled and I don’t pretend to truly understand all the issues in Israel/Palestine, but clearly the current set up isn’t working for anyone 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunaFreya Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 4 minutes ago, Ernegirl said: I think despite the complicated origin of the Palestine conflict, most people, everywhere, abhor the targeting of innocent civilians in such barbaric and distressing attacks as have happened this week. Most people abhor terrorism. I also abhor any justification of targeting civilians, you see a lot of that 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryMadigralMadge Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 This was a July article from the Times of Israel, that goes through the state of Palestinian power supply, sewerage and water, access to trade, the collapse of the Palestinian Authority etc https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-banality-of-occupation-how-sewage-and-imports-drive-west-bank-conflict/amp/ The West Bank isn’t simply collapsing into a miasma of nationalist rage, as many observers fear. It is imploding in the vacuum created by a far more insidious and persistent force: bureaucratic neglect. It is the part of the conflict in which most Palestinians actually live, and where they experience Israeli military rule most viscerally and persistently. It is the reason many ordinary Palestinians unaffiliated with any ideological movement are willing to risk new rounds of conflict and a key reason (though not the only one) why a new Palestinian generation hungers for war. Yet perhaps the most remarkable thing about it is that it’s also the part of the conflict most easily and immediately solved. It amounts to suffering inflicted through neglect and indecision. No Israeli interests are served by it, and in fact, Israelis are its immediate second-degree victims after the Palestinians. 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernegirl Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 14 minutes ago, VictorineTheCatLover said: Considering there are eyes on Iran et al how was there no chatter picked up? How did Hamas fighters get past Israeli security so easily? How did the IDF not pick up ANY Intel that this was even being planned? From everything I've seen this was a total surprise to everyone. Another theory I've seen floated was that this was planned by the IDF as well.... Who knows? The horse has well and truly bolted now. No one will be clear headed enough to look any deeper tbh Yep it’s a very peculiar lapse as it reflects upon international surveillance agencies too. But then look how often such atrocities fly under the radar elsewhere (the music festival atrocity is reminding me so much of the Bataclan attack in Paris). I am a bit wary of contemplating this whole onslaught with ‘‘9/11 was an inside job’ goggles I don’t mean at all that you are, I just mean I could see how easy it would be for people to go down that road. I don’t know how much analysis we’ll even get at this point, things are going to get a lot worse in a war footing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Iamferalz Posted October 9, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, LunaFreya said: What has one got to do with the other? The Voice would have been a process of re-engaging people of First Nations heritage into the major decisions of a country from which they were dispossessed and not even treated as human until the recent past. The effects are still being deeply felt, even though legal fairness now exists in theory. A “no” vote risks further disengagement and a deepening of the differences between the two Australias, This has happened to an extreme degree in Israel and the West Bank - where you had one society, democratic and free and another one not far away, living in terrible conditions with high unemployment, low income and poor health. A No vote might not end up in an all out violent war, but risks biting us for generations to come in terms of breeding even more distrustfulness and resentment. Edited October 9, 2023 by Iamferalz 15 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearson Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 On 08/10/2023 at 8:57 PM, LifesGood said: Where do you get reliable up-to-date news on this? Twitter is useless, as is Facebook, both are flooded with a confusing mixture of facts and extremist propaganda. The traditional media is too slow and limited. My usual reads are The Guardian and the ABC but I find they don't give me the depth of information I used to be able to get on Twitter but no longer can. BBC world news. You can listen to it on Spotify. Husband has been listening to it for years, before Covid, switched off for a while during it for obvious reasons (most news outlets we switched off of). They are a wealth of knowledge and discuss so much interesting stuff that we here in Australia never hear about, but can be affected by. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadto2 Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 If Iran is involved then this will get ugly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadto2 Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 4 hours ago, Ernegirl said: Well at the risk of crowbarring Ireland into the conversation as usual (sorry) the political conflict at home has identified with the Israel/Palestine conflict for years. Because, territorial dispute. I never really understood what the IRA were fighting for. I wonder if their politics got lost somewhere along the way and they just realised they enjoyed killing people so carried on. Most of them probably couldn't have given a flying fuck about Ireland (IMO). How could any of them have justified the Omagh bombing? But then you would know more than I would. I kind of feel similarly about Hamas. We're told their fighting to reclaim land taken from them, fighting against Israeli occupancy etc But I don't think they could give two shits about Palestine. They're driven by hate, rather than some political ideology. They know full well for every 100 Israelis they kill, they'll lose 300 Palestinians, mostly women and kids, zero fucks given. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunaFreya Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) So, this happened… https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/oct/09/pro-palestinian-rally-in-sydney-calls-for-australia-to-drop-support-for-israel Edited October 9, 2023 by LunaFreya 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifesGood Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 I think Australia could, in addition to condemning the attacks by Hamas, urge Israel to be restrained and cautious in response. But of course that would be grabbed by the opposition and used against the government as weakness and appeasement. 8 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Escapin Xmas Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 2 minutes ago, LifesGood said: I think Australia could, in addition to condemning the attacks by Hamas, urge Israel to be restrained and cautious in response. But of course that would be grabbed by the opposition and used against the government as weakness and appeasement. I agree, esp given this (from SMH this morning): Israel orders ‘complete siege’ of Gaza By Broede Carmody In case you missed it overnight, Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant has ordered a “complete siege” of the Gaza Strip. This means Israel plans to cut electricity to Gaza and block the entry of food and fuel in retaliation for the weekend’s unprecedented incursion by Hamas militants. It comes as Israel amasses 100,000 troops – along with tanks and armoured personnel carriers – near the border with Gaza. Israel has imposed various blockades on Gaza since Hamas seized power from rival Palestinian forces in 2007 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bornagirl Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 Other countries have, for yonks, urged Israel to stop builing illegal settlements in the West Bank. Made no difference. They are considered illegal by the international community, cause incredible distress to those who can only live in the West Bank and can no longer enjoy local places without sharing the space with heavily armed soldiers protecting any Jewish people there at the same time. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/26/israel-approves-plans-for-thousands-of-illegal-settlement-homes 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernegirl Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 7 hours ago, Dadto2 said: I never really understood what the IRA were fighting for. I wonder if their politics got lost somewhere along the way and they just realised they enjoyed killing people so carried on. Most of them probably couldn't have given a flying fuck about Ireland (IMO). How could any of them have justified the Omagh bombing? But then you would know more than I would. I kind of feel similarly about Hamas. We're told they’re fighting to reclaim land taken from them, fighting against Israeli occupancy etc But I don't think they could give two shits about Palestine. They're driven by hate, rather than some political ideology. They know full well for every 100 Israelis they kill, they'll lose 300 Palestinians, mostly women and kids, zero fucks given. Well I certainly found that popular support for terrorists within their own community nosedives when innocent civilians are killed, inadvertently or otherwise. The Omagh bombing was a good example of that, because the casualties were not “legitimate” targets, there was widespread loss of life and the conclusion was drawn that it wasn’t collateral. I do also think that once people tasted a normal life after the Good Friday Agreement, the will to hold onto it really took took root in the majority of people. Absolutely agree with you on your last point. I’ve been reflecting on my last post and I have to apologise and make plain the difference between Palestine and Hamas when I’m talking about the situation. I have great sympathy for the Palestinian people. I can’t support terrorism, especially when it imposes itself on the people it claims to represent. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernegirl Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 13 minutes ago, Not Escapin Xmas said: I agree, esp given this (from SMH this morning): Israel orders ‘complete siege’ of Gaza By Broede Carmody In case you missed it overnight, Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant has ordered a “complete siege” of the Gaza Strip. This means Israel plans to cut electricity to Gaza and block the entry of food and fuel in retaliation for the weekend’s unprecedented incursion by Hamas militants. It comes as Israel amasses 100,000 troops – along with tanks and armoured personnel carriers – near the border with Gaza. Israel has imposed various blockades on Gaza since Hamas seized power from rival Palestinian forces in 2007 It’s such a medieval horror, walling in, smoking out 1 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bornagirl Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 4 minutes ago, Ernegirl said: Absolutely agree with you on your last point. I’ve been reflecting on my last post and I have to apologise and make plain the difference between Palestine and Hamas when I’m talking about the situation. I have great sympathy for the Palestinian people. I can’t support terrorism, especially when it imposes itself on the people it claims to represent. I don't think you need to apologise, I think most here can appreciate the similarities you're talking about, recognising that the overall picture is very different. Same with this weekend's vote. A 'no' vote is going to cause our Indigenous population to feel the same way a Palestinian would when Israel refuses to stick to internationally agreed boundaries. There are significant numbers of both Israleis and Palestinians working towards a peacful solution, and now their plans will be dashed by Hamas. The Palestinians I met (and spent quite a few hours with, listening to them talk about their lives, and the solutions they were looking for) will NOT be celebrating, that's for sure. 3 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemonMyrtle Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 1 hour ago, Not Escapin Xmas said: I agree, esp given this (from SMH this morning): Israel orders ‘complete siege’ of Gaza By Broede Carmody In case you missed it overnight, Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant has ordered a “complete siege” of the Gaza Strip. This means Israel plans to cut electricity to Gaza and block the entry of food and fuel in retaliation for the weekend’s unprecedented incursion by Hamas militants. It comes as Israel amasses 100,000 troops – along with tanks and armoured personnel carriers – near the border with Gaza. Israel has imposed various blockades on Gaza since Hamas seized power from rival Palestinian forces in 2007 So it really is like a ww2 ghetto now. They just want them all to die, even the civilians. Even if they surrender, will they let them all out, free to integrate and live? I doubt it. 2 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunaFreya Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 I hate Netanyahu and the comparisons to being a fascist are not entirely wrong, especially the protests against his laws 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifesGood Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 Can someone explain to me why ordinary Israeli people would want to live in settlements in the Palestinian areas? I understand the government building settlements as a form of sabre-rattling, but why then do people go and live in them? Wouldn't they rather live somewhere they are welcome and not in danger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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