Israel-Palestine conflict

[LemonMyrtle]

Ok, so, culturally, religiously, politically
West Bank + Gaza = Palestine

but historically, Palestinians think
West Bank + Gaza + Israel (and more) = Palestine

However, more recently, and in a governing sense, most the western world and Israelis think:
West Bank + Gaza + Israel = Israel

and Palestinian are mostly Muslim or Islam, and Israelis are mostly Jewish. 

is that about it? 

 

[Kiwi Bicycle]

1 minute ago, LemonMyrtle said:

Ok, so, culturally, religiously, politically
West Bank + Gaza = Palestine

but historically, Palestinians think
West Bank + Gaza + Israel (and more) = Palestine

However, more recently, and in a governing sense, most the western world and Israelis think:
West Bank + Gaza + Israel = Israel

and Palestinian are mostly Muslim or Islam, and Israelis are mostly Jewish. 

is that about it? 

 

Yup sounds right. Some Palestinians are also Christians ( like Coptic Christians in Egypt).

[LunaFreya]

I prefer to look at it as TWO bad things, which exists. You can have two bad thing co-existing for different reasons 

And yes, I’m atheist and sick of all of this…

[Iamferalz]

49 minutes ago, LemonMyrtle said:

 

However, more recently, and in a governing sense, most the western world and Israelis think:
West Bank + Gaza + Israel = Israel

and Palestinian are mostly Muslim or Islam, and Israelis are mostly Jewish. 

is that about it? 

 

Most of the Western world does not actually agree that the West Bank and Gaza belong to Israel and have criticised Israel for creating settlements for its people in the West Bank.  But for a long time, the Palestinians did not accept Israel’s right to exist and Israel initially occupied those areas because Israel was invaded in 1967 and 1973 and it kept those areas as a buffer against Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon.  It then started to act like it owned those lands as their government became more right wing.

Israel was created by the United Nations majority vote after the Second World War, when sympathy after the Holocaust was running high.  So in a sense, the world also has a responsibility for the way things turned out, the British especially so.

The world would rather have the two state solution - not acceptable to either Hamas or right wing Israelis.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Iamferalz

[Prizzy07]

My limited understanding is that the Jewish people are indigenous to Israel hence their attachment to that particular area is that not the case?

[LemonMyrtle]

15 minutes ago, Iamferalz said:

Most of the Western world does actually not agree that the West Bank and Gaza belong to Israel and have criticised Israel for creating settlements for its people in the West Bank.  But for a long time, the Palestinians did not accept Israel’s right to exist and Israel initially occupied those areas because Israel was invaded in 1967 and 1973 and it kept those areas as a buffer against Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon.  It then started to act like it owned those lands as their government became more right wing.

Israel was created by the United Nations majority vote after the Second World War, when sympathy after the Holocaust was running high.  So in a sense, the world also has a responsibility for the way things turned out, the British especially so.

The world would rather have the two state solution - not acceptable to either Hamas or right wing Israelis.

So why is the USA sending military aid to Israel to fight back? Why do they keep calling the hamas attack a “surprise” and “unprecedented” ? When it’s just Palestinians getting Jack of being treated like crap and wanting their land back?

All the initial comments by western leaders seem to back Israel. Why is that? Genuine question. Im trying to understand.

other than all war is bad, so whoever attacks first is the most evil?

as has been said, whole thing seems a mess, but im surprised by the amount of support for Israel. 

[Romeo Void]

1 minute ago, LemonMyrtle said:

So why is the USA sending military aid to Israel to fight back? Why do they keep calling the hamas attack a “surprise” and “unprecedented” ? When it’s just Palestinians getting Jack of being treated like crap and wanting their land back?

All the initial comments by western leaders seem to back Israel. Why is that? Genuine question. Im trying to understand.

other than all war is bad, so whoever attacks first is the most evil?

as has been said, whole thing seems a mess, but im surprised by the amount of support for Israel. 

I also am puzzled by the amount of funding the US sends to Israel with little objection, yet there is huge objections to funding going to Ukraine. 

[LunaFreya]

There is the fact that many evangelicals in the US believe that if Israel wins it’ll bring about the rapture and the end of the world 

No, I’m not making this up 

[LifesGood]

The Palestinians want Israel 'back'. It's a bit like Russia wanting Ukraine 'back'. They have chosen a period in history when their territorial control was at its peak and decided that is what we should go back to.

[Kiwi Bicycle]

19 minutes ago, Prizzy07 said:

My limited understanding is that the Jewish people are indigenous to Israel hence their attachment to that particular area is that not the case?

Not really, because being Jewish is a faith, not a race. You can be Amercian born and still be Jewish. All 3 groups are indigenous, but the area is pretty much a crossing point to Europe, Asia and Africa, so everyone was there from Homo Sapien emergence.

However the entire area is important to all three faith groups because on mosques, churches, places where certain people important to each faith performed miracles/ were born/ and so on. All 3 faiths have valid claims. Just that it's all in the same place. Like kids fighting over a toy that has been tried to be shared out, but doesn’t work.

[Cat]

Is it also that Israel is aligned with the western world, and hence the western world more naturally allies with Israel? Not sure - I am asking for my own future knowledge.

[LunaFreya]

Just now, Kiwi Bicycle said:

Like kids fighting over a toy that has been tried to be shared out, but doesn’t work.

Which is why I want to take it away and say “none of you can play if you can’t play nice and I don’t care who had it first”

[Not Escapin Xmas]

7 minutes ago, LifesGood said:

The Palestinians want Israel 'back'. It's a bit like Russia wanting Ukraine 'back'. They have chosen a period in history when their territorial control was at its peak and decided that is what we should go back to.

The right wing nutters do. Your average Palestinian just wants to be able to live in peace.

25 minutes ago, Prizzy07 said:

My limited understanding is that the Jewish people are indigenous to Israel hence their attachment to that particular area is that not the case?

Some were, as were a bunch of other nationalities. However, since WWII, many Jewish people have moved there and slowly expanded the land ‘included’ in Israel by building on non-Israeli land and ‘claiming’ it as Israel. Western countries initially tried to get Israel to put an end to this but now turn a (very) blind eye. As they also do to the massive wall that Israel built, cutting off supplies to Palestine. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier#:~:text=The Israeli West Bank barrier,parts of the West Bank.

[Quisby]

Jew is derived from the word Judah which was a territory just south of the original land of Israel. They are indigenous to the region.

[Iamferalz]

10 minutes ago, LemonMyrtle said:

So why is the USA sending military aid to Israel to fight back? Why do they keep calling the hamas attack a “surprise” and “unprecedented” ? When it’s just Palestinians getting Jack of being treated like crap and wanting their land back?

All the initial comments by western leaders seem to back Israel. Why is that? Genuine question. Im trying to understand.

other than all war is bad, so whoever attacks first is the most evil?

as has been said, whole thing seems a mess, but im surprised by the amount of support for Israel. 

Because Hamas does not believe Israel should exist at all and want every Israeli gone, which is obviously not a realistic solution from a Western point of view.  Israel did not just simply walk in and steal the land in a grab (like the white Australians!) anyway.  Both Israel and Palestine were created by the UN in 1948 which partitioned the land area and Australia for example voted in favour of it.  So most Western countries would be wanting a two state model, ideally. 

Hamas is a militant Islamic organisation, which makes it difficult for the West to work with it.  The previously moderate and secular opposition that was in Gaza previously (Fatah?) has gone, pushed out by Hamas.  The living conditions in Gaza are so awful (made worse by Israeli blockades) it’s not hard to understand why Hamas came to power.

 

[MerryMadigralMadge]

Median age in Palestine is amongst the lowest in the world, at 19 - with no economic future, no escape, unemployment running over 30% - powder keg situation. 

[Not Escapin Xmas]

7 minutes ago, Iamferalz said:

Israel did not just simply walk in and steal the land in a grab (like the white Australians!) anyway.  Both Israel and Palestine were created by the UN in 1948 which partitioned the land area and Australia for example voted in favour of it.  So most Western countries would be wanting a two state model, ideally. 

It wasn’t too far from that though if you happened to be non-Jewish and were living somewhere (potentially for generations) until a bunch of governments decided you had to leave. I don’t think you can underestimate the impact of that.

[Bornagirl]

The majority of Palestinians would be happy with the 1967 agreement, of a two state arrangement.

Plenty of Palestinians in Gaza hate Hamas for the lives they're forced to live.

 

Gaza is a world away from the West Bank, so although both are 'Occupied Territories' it's really not possible to talk in terms of a solution that's going to suit both, especially not now.

There are extemists on both sides.

 

[VictorineTheCatLover]

It wasn't just the UK that "created" Israel after WW2. It was the US and France as well. They just didn't have the foresight to even imagine that it wasn't the right thing to do.

Palestinians have been kept in fenced and guarded limited size areas and denied even basic needs. They've been persecuted and killed for daring to express dissatisfaction with that. Sound familiar?

You can't keep a dog on a chain in a crate and beat it every day and not expect to be bitten eventually.

There are going to be severe casualties on both sides but moreso on the Palestinian side and more civilians than soldiers. It's absolutely horrific.

[LunaFreya]

Or we could talk about Sykes-Picot after WWI…

[VictorineTheCatLover]

For those interested here is the Louis Theroux episode. It's just astounding how arrogant and entitled they are towards Palestinians

https://iview.abc.net.au/show/louis-theroux-the-ultra-zionists

[HoneyBear]

33 minutes ago, LunaFreya said:

Which is why I want to take it away and say “none of you can play if you can’t play nice and I don’t care who had it first”

Tell me you are voting no on Saturday without telling me you are voting no on Saturday. 

[Iamferalz]

9 minutes ago, VictorineTheCatLover said:

It wasn't just the UK that "created" Israel after WW2. It was the US and France as well. They just didn't have the foresight to even imagine that it wasn't the right thing thing to do.

If you look at the context of the time, it was the aftermath of the Holocaust.  So there was probably a lot of international guilt over what happened.  Many of the displaced Jews from Europe moved there after liberation from camps.

 

[Jolly_F]

This thread and some of the posts are an interesting read considering what most of us (assuming some here cannot participate for a variety of reasons) are being asked to do this coming weekend. 

 

 

[Bornagirl]

Just now, Iamferalz said:

If you look at the context of the time, it was the aftermath of the Holocaust.  So there was probably a lot of international guilt over what happened.  Many of the displaced Jews from Europe moved there after liberation from camps.

 

In the last year or so I've done a lot of reading around that time, and there have been several newly released books.  I'm absolutely gobsmacked at how much the leaders of the UK & USA, along with the Pope, knew about what was happening, long before the end of the war. (Mainly around Auschwitz, because I knew we were visiting there.)