Parents and carers of children with special needs chat thread #3

[Paddlepop]

@Princess Peach Hearing impairment doesn’t mean that a child needs a special school but they do benefit from attending a school that specialises in hearing impairment.

There’s three state primaries that do that in the Brisbane area. (She’s not deaf. She attended there because it was the best choice for ASD support and there were no catchment restrictions in place at the time.) My DD’s primary school is one of them. The way the school is set up is a model for others integrating Auslan into the school and other schools have incorporated the set up into their own school.

There’s always a bilingual class for each year: English and Auslan, as well as English only. Both hearing impaired and hearing children are in the bilingual class. There’s at least one Auslan interpreter in the classroom at all times to sign between the teacher and deaf students. Deaf children with higher needs will have a personal teacher aide who is also an Auslan interpreter. The teacher will often wear multiple microphones for multiple FM or Roger devices. Cochlear implants are a very very common sight. One of the most popular teachers is deaf and has either a hearing aid or Cochlear or possibly both.

All school events are signed, including the entire assembly each week and even school discos. Yes, the songs are signed! There’s a deaf signing choir. All students take an Auslan class once a week from Prep. Many teachers, teacher aides and other staff can sign. Children of deaf adults (CODA) also attend the school specifically to access Auslan because it’s often their first language even without hearing impairment, and the parents can access a community of other deaf people. Interpreters are available for parent-teacher interviews, adults only trivia nights, or any event that might have deaf adults in need of them.

The school has flashing lights for when the bell goes so that the deaf can know that the bell has gone. The lights are in every classroom, in multiple outdoor areas and in the toilets.

The high school she’s at now is also a specialist school for deaf and hearing impaired students. It’s the catchment high school for the primary school. There’s not the same level of deaf awareness and integration at all. It’s actually been a bit of a shock after the primary school. At assembly-type events there’s still Auslan interpreters but they sign directly in front of each deaf class instead of on stage next to the speaker. To be fair the school is massive so students at the back of the hall would probably struggle to see the hand movements and facial expressions. Auslan interpreters at each event are no longer a given thing. For example at the school musical this year only one of three? performances was signed instead of each one and parents had to ask which one it was. It wasn’t advertised. 

The flashing bell lights are only in the deaf specialist classrooms instead of the entire school. All deaf students for each year level are in one class with few or no hearing students. Interpreters for deaf parents are available on request. At least one of the external interpreters (as opposed to the ones on staff who are there each day) is one who also works with the primary school so he’s a familiar face for deaf parents and students.

Some disabilities can be integrated into a mainstream school relatively easily but there will be children who have needs that just can’t be. They’ll need highly specialised staff. Also, if the children attend a school where they’re not the only one with that disability they and their family have a chance to form a community with others who have the same needs. The support that can provide shouldn’t be underestimated or forgotten about.

[Fruitmincepies]

Our state school has kids in every year level with disabilities that are significant enough to warrant full time aides (including non-verbal kids who need to be changed and fed). Changing spaces and accessible bathrooms have been built, and the school has a lovely accepting and accommodating vibe to it. The kids with disabilities are valued class members. 

[Moomintroll]

I feel quite a lot of distress around the notion of closing special schools. I feel that the discourse is shallow and flawed, and that some children will find being placed in a mainstream class distressing no matter how much support there is.

Children at special schools these days are often those with the greatest support needs and complex disability.  It's a no brainer that children who go to mainstream school do better later in life - because on average they are a different cohort with lower disability needs.

I work closely with numerous children who have a diagnosis of ASD Lvl 3 plus intellectual disability.  Many of these children have high sensory sensitivity and great difficulty with regulation. They rely on adults to extensively modify and support their environments and routines in order to achieve even a basic level of regulation. Mainstream classrooms are noisy, cluttered, busy, unpredictable and fast paced. Merely being present in these spaces can and does cause dysregulation in many of these students. Which can result in great distress, self harm, hurting others, destructive behaviours,  refusal, and behavioural regression. Even with the best of intentions.  I've seen it too often as I have supported numerous such students transitioning to school (both types of environment and often switching between). It is utterly heartbreaking to see a student bang his head day after day, until eventually putting it through a glass window, due to the stress of an overly complex environment (but such a relief when same child moved to a small specialist class and thrived).

The agenda for education is to also cease special small group classes as well and force every child into a mainstream classroom. Even when not understanding the teaching causes them distress. Even when just entering the room causes them distress. 

 I fear families of kids like these have no voice. I fear a lot of children will just leave school and stay home. I don't know why it isn't discussed more in greater detail.  

[Phillipa Crawford]

My nephew had a severe disability - in all areas other than gross motor (he was an active runner and climber) he operated at the level of a 9-12month old.
He would not have benefited from being in a regular school and his class mates would not have benefited from him in a classroom.
In my previous role as a preschool teacher I have had a wide range of diversity amongst my students and they were all loved and included fully. But as I said to their parents I am not a specialist, I can guarantee your child will be one of us but I cannot teach as much as include. Every child became a valued member of the group but preschool is vastly different from a educational setting.
It would be impossible for one classroom teacher to differentiate that much.

I also observed when my ND kids went to school that they may get an aide for the classroom but were left alone in the yard at playtime.
Segregation is not the answer and I know my NT class benefited more from the presence of someone who behaved differently. Co-location on school grounds and part time attendance where appropriate might work

[Prancer]

7 hours ago, Too tired to care said:

Our OT has been able to arrange for my son to use his iPad and type more due to his poor writing. He has hypermobility and poor muscle tone along with other issues and being able to type is so much better for him. Not sure how your school would take it , but it can't hurt to ask the OT for a formal writing assessment and to recommend typing as a way forward while you strengthen his writing skills. 

Thanks.  We have some things being put in place and a lap top coming. I just feel frustrated I can’t talk to people about my kid’s issues without the focus shifting to their kid and they have the same problem.  And I doubt they have the same problem if their kid is not diagnosed and the school is not flagging any concerns with the parents! 

[Panda]

If they close down special schools they need to do significant work on improving mainstream schools. Inclusion is ideal. It would be great if we had mainstream schools and if ALL mainstream schools had special classes and departments integrated in a way where students with high needs could have those needs met.. but I'm not sure how realistic it is.
They are building a lot of supported inclusion schools in Victoria but these schools are not designed to accomodate all abilities.
I also dont understand why all schools have not been revamped to be part of supported inclusion. It seems that supports vary from school to school and there is little to no consistency and its pure luck if you live next to one of these schools.

Just as an example an acquaintances son is likely ND but he has no diagnosis and his mother doesn't even want to hear about any of it so he has no funding of any kind.  The mainstream school he goes to is small.. so far they have organised for him (free of charge), weekly speech therapy, headphones and a quiet time space for when he is feeling overwhelmed. He had some issues with physical contact and aggression towards other kids so they placed him into a monitored play program with organised weekly lunch time activities like basketball, dance, bring 1 friend day. I mean, how freaking awesome does the school sound? The mother basically dismisses the school whenever they try to bring up anything and tells them " I was the same " or you're over reacting....I dont think she knows how lucky he is to be in the zone for this school.

On another note...DD gets her diagnosis on Wednesday !! Finally the end of the road.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Pandobox

[Smudgedit]

I have no problem with special schools and programs in schools if they are used appropriately.

When looking at high schools in WA, I was not impressed with the Ed Support Units in high schools. they were set up as isolation units with minimal interaction to mainstream and they had no clear path to transition to mainstream. Have heard of students not having access to appropriate education as they are intended for students with intellectual impairments. This is what was recommended for my son and he has no intellectual impairment, he just didn't fit anywhere else.

Students do get stuck in setups like this and this is something that I would like to see stopped. 

 

[DrowninginPlushies]

I don't know about the shutting of special schools. Mainstream just doesn't have the resources to manage it. I see kids now who disrupt the mainstream class, or run away or become violent because they can't cope & don't have their needs met. The school just doesn't have the resources or authority to do anything & kids are slipping through the cracks.

Although inclusion is ideal, I've so little faith in our state high school system to support DS, and protect him from bullying, we're going private & looking at a couple of schools who do have supports & are well known for zero bullying policies. DS'els needs are minimal and he's got an above average intellect, but, he's obviously different, and has a few social cues issues.

[Paddlepop]

Do some of the commissioners own lift,  ramp or specialised changing facility installation companies? The sheer amount of money and renovation work that would be required to make schools physically accessible and with appropriate toileting facilities is enormous.

Lifts cost an absolute shitload of money to install. Just a basic lift is insane in the cost. One was retrofitted at DD’s primary school to allow better access for a child with a physical disability and it took a few years to get it done plus the money had to come from somewhere. I’m guessing that the state government paid for it. The bloody thing constantly broke down, including with the child in it. Thankfully he had a teacher aide with him who had a mobile phone. It took about an hour to get them out of the lift. 

Will all schools have improved and specialised drop off zones for easy drop off and collection of the students, especially those in electric wheelchairs or other physical disabilities? Who is going to patrol those zones to chase off the rude parents who shouldn’t be using those zones?

[Wattle]

In a perfect world it would be good to have special schools located next to general schools, so the kids have more awareness of each other and transition can be tested if desired.

but that is a perfect world solution for new school builds. With the current situation closing down special schools would not go well.

 

[Kiwi Bicycle]

My MIL worked as a teacher in a NZ Blind school that had a unit that included deaf, non verbal and often wheelchair users. These were children up to the age of 21 who were incontinent, often tube feed, and often self harmed by biting themselves or hitting their heads.

She is still living with the injuries she sustained working within this unit as physical out bursts were common.

I am uncertain how the really severely disabled students could be safely accomodated in a normal primary or high school. There simply isn't enough trained teachers to be in every school. And being on a primary school council, there simply isn't the money to spend on fitting out a school to accommodate as well. There's finite funds.

[MoukMouk]

I was thinking about starting a thread on the suggestions around special schools. I find it frustrating when people consider all disabilities to be the same. It’s a very very different experience for someone like Dylan Alcott or Nas Campanella to someone with a severe intellectual disability. Like others here I’ve seen first hand kids absolutely thrive when they have moved to a special school. What do the commissioners suggest instead of group homes? How do they think someone with a severe intellectual disability who is non verbal and can’t dress themselves is magically going to be able to cope with life independently? I absolutely applaud many of their suggestions but the distress I’m seeing in many parents is awful. 

[MsLaurie]

I suppose we shouldn’t go straight to “it can’t work because our school is old and poorly built” or “classes are already too big” or “we already don’t have enough teachers” - there is about a two decade transition proposed, and perhaps this is an opportunity to go “right, each school needs to meet these requirements. So what needs to happen to make that possible?”

[Princess Peach]

31 minutes ago, MsLaurie said:

I suppose we shouldn’t go straight to “it can’t work because our school is old and poorly built” or “classes are already too big” or “we already don’t have enough teachers” - there is about a two decade transition proposed, and perhaps this is an opportunity to go “right, each school needs to meet these requirements. So what needs to happen to make that possible?”

I do agree that for the vast majority of disabled students mainstream schools can be modified in that timeframe - wheelchair access, braile signs & audio loops incorporated. The curiculum being modified so that english is taught in a way that benefits students with dyslexia, maths is taught so that kids with dyscalcula can understand it. Assistive tech is welcomed for those kids with low muscle tone/dysgraphia, the widespread use of auslan in all classrooms. As a total aside, I'd love if auslan was taught from prep as a main subject, I see so many benefits to . These are very achievable things.

However what i'm not sure about at this moment in time is how mainstream schools will be able to be modifide to accomodate the children with severe intelelctual imparements, who with even the best interventions, will never be able to live independent lives. And then how will their inclusion in the classroom not impact on the needs of other kids in the classroom with learning disabilities, who find the current disruptions hard enough to deal with.

[Paddlepop]

@MsLaurie No, not two decades. All commissioners agreed on no new enrolments at special schools from 2032. 

[MsLaurie]

Ah sorry I must be getting confused about some of the timelines on other ones. Still a solid lead time.

[Kiwi Bicycle]

There's a reason centralisation happens. It brings together funds, talent and resources. Try scattering them around and they barely can do anything. 

Integrate who can into schools, but realise that one size doesn't fit all.

And I had a satellite unit of kids with Downs and cerebral palsy at my Primary in NZ. But they also had their own school as well but spent time at ours. It was the best of both worlds.

[LemonMyrtle]

4 minutes ago, Paddlepop said:

@MsLaurie No, not two decades. All commissioners agreed on no new enrolments at special schools from 2032. 

I can’t see this recommendation being taken on. For all the reasons mentioned already. 

But also, physically, I just can’t see how it would work. Just thinking about our local primary school.  It’s small and hemmed in on all sides. There isn’t the physical space to add, for example, a large bathroom that will accommodate lifts and changing spaces etc. there isn’t the physical space to make every room accessible. I don’t even think every classroom has a ramp. The classrooms themselves are small, and full just with tables and chairs. They have been told by the department to limit enrolments to in zone only because they’re out of classrooms and have no more space for portables. The portables, which is about half the school, well, we all know what they look like, they’re not huge, I doubt a high needs wheel chair would fit easily and be able to navigate a class in one without major modifications. Is the government going to roll out new, better, bigger, portables?
Our school has no break-our spaces, no spare classrooms, no spare offices, so things like the school psych, OT, reading groups etc, often have to use a hallway for appointments. Recently they squished two rooms off to the side in the gym hallway for music rooms. But they’re tiny. So where would extra support occur?

so, ok, maybe that school wouldn’t become a school that supports all disabilities. Then that leads to only some schools being all-inclusive. So does that then make them a special school anyway?

im trying to not just think “it’s impossible!”, but, what would be required is soooooo expensive that I don’t think the government will adopt that recommendation. And if they do adopt it, it will be under funded, and end in poor service and kids will suffer. 

[Moomintroll]

21 minutes ago, Kiwi Bicycle said:

There's a reason centralisation happens. It brings together funds, talent and resources. Try scattering them around and they barely can do anything. 

Integrate who can into schools, but realise that one size doesn't fit all.

And I had a satellite unit of kids with Downs and cerebral palsy at my Primary in NZ. But they also had their own school as well but spent time at ours. It was the best of both worlds.

There was a segment on ABC Insiders. The host was speaking with Jordan Steele-John about timeliness. He said it would need some time, for example to build facilities like hydrotherapy pools. I just thought to myself,  no, nobody's going to build any hydrotherapy pools. Kids who get hydrotherapy at their special schools won't get it at a mainstream school. 

Those sort of facilities are by necessity centralised. 

[Jolly_F]

I support the closure of special schools in an ideal world ideal but alas in that world we do not live. Every kid, no matter their ability or diagnosis should have the right education at a “mainstream” school. There would be no special schools, Catholic schools, religious schools or even private schools. Every kid would receive the benefit of the same level of education but tailored to their specific needs, even NT kids need that but often don’t get it.

Schooling in Australia needs a massive overhaul and it needs to be done at a federal level. Every state should be following the same, this state to state stuff is bullshit. 

[Moomintroll]

5 minutes ago, Jolly_F said:

 Every kid, no matter their ability or diagnosis should have the right education at a “mainstream” school. There would be no special schools, Catholic schools, religious schools or even private schools. Every kid would receive the benefit of the same level of education but tailored to their specific needs, even NT kids need that but often don’t get it.

 

Do you think that standard schools can actually meet the needs of every type of child? And I'm not just thinking of disability here, I'm thinking of the myriad of other ways children differ - in personality,  skills, interests,  preferences,  family values etc. I'm also thinking of kids who refuse school or disengage from school. 

I don't think anyone should have to accept only one option actually.  I think we need abundant diversity and innovation,  as well as choice. 

[Jolly_F]

3 minutes ago, Moomintroll said:

Do you think that standard schools can actually meet the needs of every type of child? And I'm not just thinking of disability here, I'm thinking of the myriad of other ways children differ - in personality,  skills, interests,  preferences,  family values etc. I'm also thinking of kids who refuse school or disengage from school. 

I don't think anyone should have to accept only one option actually.  I think we need abundant diversity and innovation,  as well as choice.

Not currently no, I think schools as they are right now are broken and failing many many kids. As I said my comments were ideal world, in which we don’t live.

But I definitely believe that money should not be able to buy you better education… that’s just fucked up!! 

[DrowninginPlushies]

In a perfect world schools would be all inclusive. But, the logistics are fraught with problems.

I'm also cynical because I've seen how the government gives generously to 'sell' their plan, then cuts funding - either obviously or by not increasing as needed. It's a huge risk & all students could suffer. 

If this happens, a chasm between public and private could open up. Private schools won't be as all inclusive and mainstream parents who can afford it will send their kids private. It's already happened here - the mainstream SEN support funding at our local high school has been diverted to another high needs type cohort the govt moved into the area without extra funding to support them. So we will have no choice but to go private. I've a friend doing the same & I expect there will be others. Obviously there are other reasons too, but a teacher there said 'go private or home school.' 

[Grumbles]

Our federalism is part of the problem. In parts of the US, therapy such as speech is delivered in schools by speech “teachers”. I am sure it is not perfect but a different model to our fragmented system where services children of all ages and needs might need are delivered outside of school in a way that actually prevents collaboration between teachers and allied heath.

Our schools have been built around traditional classrooms whether they be single room or open plan. They could be a hub of disability and paediatric health services from birth to adulthood. 

You would need more than a principal overseeing this, it would provide advancement options for those wanting to be a facility manager. Imagine having consulting rooms for public and private services on campus.

But like others I struggle to imagine my children’s primary school integrating students with more complex needs, no fencing, poorly maintained paths, no breakout rooms, no parking. Would love Auslan to be taught, DD was getting really good when she had a classmate who communicated with Auslan but has not had chance to continue to learn.

We have a specialist high school very close by. It has quite big grounds for the number of students to accomodate the therapy pool, fenced play areas, school bus bays etc. With the high teacher/aide to student ratios it probably has triple the staff our primary school has.

[Mooguru]

Im very sceptical of it being implemented in a meaningful way where it is truly about the best outcomes for all vs already vulnerable people becoming even more vulnerable because they are expected to fit the mould of a person with a higher functional capacity. I really worry there's a risk of demonising through turning disability into personal responsibility I.e. "they should just try harder" for those that struggle instead of flourishing.

Take the closure of Kingsdene School in 2009. Did the government step up to ensure the needs of those (current and future) students and families were met or are they now even worse off than they would have been had that model continued? Personally that's one decision I think the Labor government truly stuffed up. Because I bet the outcomes for a profoundly disabled person who is relinquished to state care out of desperation is not better off long term.

https://www.9news.com.au/national/lack-of-respite-pushes-parents-to-breaking/f0d54bbe-7f2d-40a9-b298-5bf5496689f1