Bus crash in Hunter Valley :(

[LunaFreya]

I regularly catch a coach and they remind us to wear seatbelts but it’s not enforced by the driver 

[Chocolate Addict]

38 minutes ago, Julie3Girls said:

I could agree with a bus driver telling everyone they need to wear seatbelts, issuing a reminder before the bus leaves.  Standard buses are still pretty much no seatbelts, people are used to the idea that they don’t wear a seatbelt on a bus, it’s even expected that buses will have people standing.  So yes, reminders to passengers on a coach that seatbelts are available and are to be used, could be good thing.

But really, how is the bus driver meant to monitor and enforce seatbelt wearing, while still maintaining his attention on actually driving the bus?  There needs to be an element of personal responsibility, a bus full of adults who should know to wear seatbelts.

These are charter/hired buses we are talking about, you check before you drive off. Like airplane staff do before take off. A quick walk down the aisle and have a look.

Of course people can and do take them off after they have checked but it would take less than a minute to do it.

[Rosie28]

3 minutes ago, Chocolate Addict said:

These are charter/hired buses we are talking about, you check before you drive off. Like airplane staff do before take off. A quick walk down the aisle and have a look.

Of course people can and do take them off after they have checked but it would take less than a minute to do it.

On a tour recently this is exactly what happened - we were all told to put our seatbelts on as we boarded, and then the driver walked up and back to check. People may have taken them off again (though why I do not know) but at least they were checked at the start. I've been on the post wedding bus (and chartered one for our wedding guests as well) and there's all sorts going on, people standing etc, it's scary.

[Pip]

The number's are astounding.  37 passengers, 25 injured and 10 have passed and a driver who appears to be uninjured looking at photos.  That would mean only 2 of the passengers appeared to have not being injured and they will also have 'survivors guilt'.  If the accounts of the driver gloating about speed are true there will be so many questions of why they would do that.  Surely busses should have some kind of regulation when it comes to seatbelts being worn and kept on by all passengers and if they don't then the automotive industry NEEDS to make radical safety changes

[LemonMyrtle]

12 minutes ago, Pip said:

The number's are astounding.  37 passengers, 25 injured and 10 have passed and a driver who appears to be uninjured looking at photos.  That would mean only 2 of the passengers appeared to have not being injured and they will also have 'survivors guilt'.  If the accounts of the driver gloating about speed are true there will be so many questions of why they would do that.  Surely busses should have some kind of regulation when it comes to seatbelts being worn and kept on by all passengers and if they don't then the automotive industry NEEDS to make radical safety changes

You can see seatbelts save lives.

School bus: rolls on its side, young kids inside, horrific injuries, but no deaths.

winery bus: rolls onto its side, 10 dead and numerous others severely injured. Belted up (I assume, cause I’ve never seen one unbelted) driver seems ok.

speed makes a difference. But I think we can assume from the numbers that the adults didn’t have their seatbelts on.

Initially, people suggested the school Kids may not have been wearing belt, but I knew that was wrong. And this is why, because no kids died. If those kids didn’t have belts half or more would have died.
 

[ellie]

8 minutes ago, Pip said:

The number's are astounding.  37 passengers, 25 injured and 10 have passed and a driver who appears to be uninjured looking at photos.  That would mean only 2 of the passengers appeared to have not being injured and they will also have 'survivors guilt'.  If the accounts of the driver gloating about speed are true there will be so many questions of why they would do that.  Surely busses should have some kind of regulation when it comes to seatbelts being worn and kept on by all passengers and if they don't then the automotive industry NEEDS to make radical safety changes

Some of the media reports suggest the driver was also a local. My assumption is there was a high level of excitement and frivolity on the bus, and the driver (very very stupidly and negligently) got caught up in it and was messing around and showing off, with absolutely no thought to the possible consequences. His lack of criminal history suggests he probably isn’t a generally awful or highly reckless person. I have to admit that I do have empathy for him too. I’ve worked with offenders, including those who have killed people in negligent circumstances, and it’s an incredibly hard weight to bear. No one ever thinks their stupidity and recklessness will have such devastating consequences. 

[pelagic]

It's always been a weird one to me - seatbelts seatbelts seatbelts but on most buses you don't have to or can't wear them (belt not big enough, seat so narrow you're feeling up the fellow passenger and you can't get up to let people in or off) and the aisles get crammed too and on trains they're removing seats (at least in melbourne) to have as many people standing as possible. If they decide to demand seatbelts on every bus they're going to have to do something about the way buses are designed, like an aisle next to every seat so people can get out easily. Or factor in the extra time in the journey to stop at each bus stop for long enough for people to remove their seat belt, let a person out, sit down and reattach seat belt. 

[pelagic]

27 minutes ago, Pip said:

The number's are astounding.  37 passengers, 25 injured and 10 have passed and a driver who appears to be uninjured looking at photos.  That would mean only 2 of the passengers appeared to have not being injured and they will also have 'survivors guilt'.  If the accounts of the driver gloating about speed are true there will be so many questions of why they would do that.  Surely busses should have some kind of regulation when it comes to seatbelts being worn and kept on by all passengers and if they don't then the automotive industry NEEDS to make radical safety changes

I read somewhere it was 57 passengers and 18 uninjured. Maybe have changed though. 

[STBG 2]

I am not sure that this thread is the right place to have an ongoing discussion regarding seat belts as it feels as though the victims are being blamed when they shouldn't be as there are so many grey areas with this. I am happy to delete or have my post moved somewhere else. 

The fact seems to be that if the bus driver had not been speeding we would not be having this conversation.

 

It took years and fines to convince people to wear seatbelts in cars, the same thing will happen in buses.

The word 'compartmentalization' comes into play when it comes to an explanation as to why they are yet to be mandatory in all buses which assumes some protection is afforded by the arrangement of the seats. I can attest to the fact that this is not true and the only thing that stops a person becoming a human missile in a bus that stops suddenly or turns over is a seatbelt.

Under law if there is a seatbelt it MUST be worn and as I have said before there will be a fight with TAC to accept liability for medical and like care if the belt has not been worn and this can lead to another world of pain for all these poor victims.

 

[Julie3Girls]

The coach was able to take 57, but was only carrying 37 passengers on the night. 9 passed at the scene, 25 initially taken to hospital, including one who passed away in the hospital. 14 still in hospital as of this morning.

All I know is that it completely reinforces why I pick up my daughter from high school every day - travel along an 80 km/hr road, in an overcrowded  bus with no seatbelts. So overcrowded that if you know you are going to need to get off at one of the first stops, you need to be last on the bus or you won’t be able to get past people to get off. 

[LunaFreya]

6 minutes ago, pelagic said:

It's always been a weird one to me - seatbelts seatbelts seatbelts but on most buses you don't have to or can't wear them (belt not big enough, seat so narrow you're feeling up the fellow passenger and you can't get up to let people in or off) and the aisles get crammed too and on trains they're removing seats (at least in melbourne) to have as many people standing as possible. If they decide to demand seatbelts on every bus they're going to have to do something about the way buses are designed, like an aisle next to every seat so people can get out easily. Or factor in the extra time in the journey to stop at each bus stop for long enough for people to remove their seat belt, let a person out, sit down and reattach seat belt. 

Seat belts would be a good idea on some buses if the drivers insist on going fast and braking hard  

[STBG 2]

56 minutes ago, pelagic said:

It's always been a weird one to me - seatbelts seatbelts seatbelts but on most buses you don't have to or can't wear them (belt not big enough, seat so narrow you're feeling up the fellow passenger and you can't get up to let people in or off) and the aisles get crammed too and on trains they're removing seats (at least in melbourne) to have as many people standing as possible. If they decide to demand seatbelts on every bus they're going to have to do something about the way buses are designed, like an aisle next to every seat so people can get out easily. Or factor in the extra time in the journey to stop at each bus stop for long enough for people to remove their seat belt, let a person out, sit down and reattach seat belt. 

Buses and coaches will have to obviously change their design to accommodate seatbelts and allow easy movement in and out. Those I have been on have not been difficult to undo and they are generous in size.

People's lives are far more important than worrying about revenue for a bus company because they may have to lose half a dozen bums on seats by installing seat belts and adding 10 minutes onto their schedule. Like all things people become very used to doing it in time.

 

[BKK]

I don’t understand why he got bail

[Rosie28]

2 minutes ago, BKK said:

I don’t understand why he got bail

They use a lot of factors but my guess would be he’s not a flight risk, has no criminal record, will not be a danger to the community (he won’t be driving), and has ties to the community. I don’t necessarily agree with it, but I suspect that’s what has gone into it. 

[CCABW]

I knew one of the victims. And I am absolutely disgusted with how the media are reporting on this. 

[Rosie28]

I’m so sorry. The reporting is bonkers, I’ve never seen anything like it. 

1 minute ago, CCABW said:

I knew one of the victims. And I am absolutely disgusted with how the media are reporting on this. 

 

[STBG 2]

1 hour ago, BKK said:

I don’t understand why he got bail

I would have been surprised if he hadn't.

He is not going anywhere with the restrictions put on him and there is no doubt that despite the fact his idiocy has caused this tragedy he is probably not a risk to anyone else.

He will end up in jail in the long term which he does deserve.

 

[Julie3Girls]

I believe the time frame was also a consideration, given that it probably won’t go to court until next year.  Mental health concerns were also mentioned.
He isn’t considered a flight risk.  And he isn’t allowed to even sit in a the drivers seat of a vehicle, so his job is gone. 

[LifesGood]

I think it is perfectly logical that he would get bail. 

 

[Gumbette]

6 hours ago, LemonMyrtle said:

You can see seatbelts save lives.

School bus: rolls on its side, young kids inside, horrific injuries, but no deaths.

winery bus: rolls onto its side, 10 dead and numerous others severely injured. Belted up (I assume, cause I’ve never seen one unbelted) driver seems ok.

speed makes a difference. But I think we can assume from the numbers that the adults didn’t have their seatbelts on.

Initially, people suggested the school Kids may not have been wearing belt, but I knew that was wrong. And this is why, because no kids died. If those kids didn’t have belts half or more would have died.
 

DD just mentioned that since kindy the teacher (on excursions) or the bus driver on the school bus always checked that everyone had seatbelts on before starting the trip. As a consequence/ habit even now in y9 DD always puts her seatbelt on the moment she hops on the bus. 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Gumbette

[Kiwi Bicycle]

Slight divergent but I cannot understand why we have buses with no seat belts and people expected to stand ( normal public transport buses) on freeways moving at speed. Yes, they are probably not doing 100 km/hr, but most likely 80, and at that speed an accident would be terrible. 

But I guess we haven't had that type of accident...yet.

[STBG 2]

1 hour ago, Kiwi Bicycle said:

Slight divergent but I cannot understand why we have buses with no seat belts and people expected to stand ( normal public transport buses) on freeways moving at speed. Yes, they are probably not doing 100 km/hr, but most likely 80, and at that speed an accident would be terrible. 

But I guess we haven't had that type of accident...yet.

There needs to be change. At the moment it is all about crowding as many bodies onto a bus as possible and that will mean many will be standing. 

The reluctance from many bus companies is that they know once they have them fitted they must be worn and therefore their profit margins narrow. They'll fight it until they are mandated.

[Elmo]

I thought it is law in NSW that if seatbelts are fitted in the vehicle, it is the driver's responsibility to ensure they are worn? However it's so much harder to police. I had to drive a Toyota commuter, so 14 seats, for a kids group excursion - ages from 8-16, and I still had to remind them all trip to keep their belts on, stay in the seat, don't swap seats, etc etc....

It's actually really really hard for the driver because you're trying to drive. If I was driving adults I probably wouldn't be giving all the reminders because I would assume they are grown up enough to have it on & stay seated.

So I don't know what the answer is. If I lost my license because I was driving a bus of adults and got pulled over for a seatbelt check and some were not wearing them, that would seem pretty unfair. I was scared enough driving the kids and knowing if something happened and even 1 of them had no belt on, I'd be liable.

[Lizzybirdsworth]

It’s so incredibly sad. Ds1 has played a few times with one of the men and we dealt with one of the women when he had his major concussion at singletons ground. The poor families. So heartbreaking 

[nightmarish]

11 hours ago, ellie said:

Some of the media reports suggest the driver was also a local. My assumption is there was a high level of excitement and frivolity on the bus, and the driver (very very stupidly and negligently) got caught up in it and was messing around and showing off, with absolutely no thought to the possible consequences. His lack of criminal history suggests he probably isn’t a generally awful or highly reckless person. I have to admit that I do have empathy for him too. I’ve worked with offenders, including those who have killed people in negligent circumstances, and it’s an incredibly hard weight to bear. No one ever thinks their stupidity and recklessness will have such devastating consequences. 

The driver is from Maitland, so same area, but not the same town. Given what has come out I think he was a reckless idiot and will forever have those lives on his conscious, but I understand why he got bail.

8 hours ago, BKK said:

I don’t understand why he got bail

Denial of bail is not supposed to be a punishment, it is only for when there are risk factors and none of them seem to be in play. It will be a long time before he gets his day in court and his family is probably going to suffer greatly for his actions, I think one of the articles said he has four kids.

It's such a fucking waste, they did all the right things, being responsible and hiring a bus for transport and this happens, it's hit too close to home for me, being a Singo girl (no longer live there) and having family who easily could have been involved, they work with planning and often book transport on behalf of wedding groups.